Introducing Namespaces

General Discussion
#102

Maybe I missed it somehow, can you please explain good reasons for a namespace to expire at all? Can’t it just be enough to make them trade- / exchange- / transferable?

And

  • Yes, makoto likes some fees from the renewal for a fund :wink: (no good reason to let them expire)
  • Yes, people will mass claim common namespaces (no good reason to let them expire - they will probable do it anyway)
  • Yes, namespaces will get lost because of lost keys (also not real reason for me to let them expire)

If it’s planned that I can trade, exchange and transfer them and if I have a preemption for renewal on namespaces I already control - why expiry at all?

#103

make em never expire but expensive and transferable with fees

this way u get a initial nice amount of funding and later on by trade fees

u could flag namespaces without action inside since ages (no new asses no movement of assets and so on)
as inactive

that should help to enable a filter hide inactive so not any search is fucked up by endless inactive namespaces

#104

Well , the only doubt I have about the namespaces is the risk of gold digger type of people that will register a lot of namespaces in the beginning with the intent to sell them for profit later.
If they would never expire this may become a serious issue! Either you have to make them seriously expensive which will have a detrimental effect on the intended use or you will have these vultures trying to register as much relevant namespaces as possible to sell them with profit later on.

1 Like
#105

Everything in the real world may expire if you don’t renew it somehow.
Namespaces expiration is necessary to keep a link to reality, to show that the issuer who renews them still supports them, to ensure the assets are not scam.

Expiration has nothing to do with trade volume: I don’t sell my house everyday but I have to take care of it from time to time if I don’t want it to be a ruin.
Even if I take care of it I don’t think it will still be there in few hundreds years from now.

Please, keep in mind that expired doesn’t mean forgotten. Old blocks in the blockchain can’t be deleted. You will always be able to know who had an expired asset.

I like very much Jabo’s idea of a variable expiration period because many things have a known planned expiration date since start.

2 Likes
#106

CounterParty has a few options we don’t. It is also really cheap to create an asset there. Obviously our Namespaces are a lot better, but their asset creating function has some neat options that Mosaics doesn’t (yet).

#107

The pay divident is a nice option.
A nice feature for mosaics would be to have some options to serialize assets and the possibility to create custom properties for each of these serialised assets.
Amendments to these properties should be limited to the asset issuer, to prevent tampering.

Without giving away too much detail :wink: this would make it easy to create assets for things that have some unique features in real life or as a better digital representation for serialied/unique property.
Without this feature it can probably be dealt with in a creative way but for some things you probably need centralised services.

#108

Those look like pretty good reasons to me.
Add to that the potential for pruning them from the chain and therefore saving some space.

It’s the same with domain names. You rent that spot you don’t buy it. Otherwise it would have to be A LOT more expensive.

#109

that the right direction jabo38 try provide all abilities counterparty have and then add more on top

not start with reduces possibilities thats from marketing perspective very difficult to promote as advance bitcoin 2.0 plattform if in fact u lose abilities

#110

patmaster the point is if u lose access to a domainname the websides and services hosted there that where reachable with that name dont disapear

i never had problems with a comcept of renew fees for namespace

i have troubles about a easy spoken everything connected vanish

which is shortminded

a namespace is for assets what DNS (domainname) is for the internet

even without a domainname websites and services are reachable u just need to know their IP address

#111

Well, nothing is forever but i disagree with your statement. What would be a good expiry period? 1Year? 5? 10? Every month? Does your real name expire (only if you die and what does expiry mean in this case)? Especially if you compare it to the real world I see much more grayscales between expired(and removed) and not expired.

@patmast3r: Hmm, for me these are no good reasons - XEM are also lost with lost keys and nobody cares. Claiming of common namespaces will happen anyway! And you say you can save some space by pruning, other say: don’t worry even if expired your old data is still in the chain and save…

Maybe it’s just me but I see no real reason why namespaces should expire at all. Single asset expiry, ok, this could be up for a discussion, but the whole namespace? At least make the timeframe for namespace expiry variable - something like: buying a namespace for “x” blocks in the future will cost “y” XEM. F.ex.: A namespace for 200000 blocks in the future will cost you 200000 * 0.01XEM = 2000XEM fees, 400000 blocks cost you 4000XEM and so on. Something like this - gives you the chance to prepay and reserve for a longer time if wanted - no need to renew in a fixed period.

Everybody is focusing on assets. Aren’t you thinking about use cases for namespaces beyond assets? Focusing on namespaces just to issue assets limits the huge potential imo.

Address book, alias, voting, reputation and so much more could be realized on top of namespaces.

#112

I said you can potentially save some space. Obviously this is not implemented right now.

#113

namespace could be easy go as unique digital ID of a person
reputation system could be in place to filter out fake IDs

the absolute opposite of all that anonymous crap going on everywhere

in fact we are white vest people we have nothing to hide

for me its much more valuable to be able prove who i am and what reputation i have than some anonymous feature stuff

namespace would be ideal for that

just one more of the million ways to take advantage of the potential a proper setup namespace could give to people

1 Like
#114

It took me some time to fully read this thread. Very interesting arguments been made. I am not even sure which point to reply to. I would just list my thoughts:

1- Fees should be directed to the NEM NODE REWARD account. And when DEV funds starts to run low, fees should by then automatically redirected to fund the DEV account(s).
2- Namespaces should totally disappear after expiration. However, that should happen gradually not just simply after 1 month. I would say for every year a namespace is being subscribed/registered the allowed time frame after expiration should be extended as of 1 month per every registered year:
- 1 year registration -> 1 month limit after expiration.
- 2 years registration -> 2 months limit after expiration.
- 12 years registration -> 1 year limit for renewal after expiration.
3- When a namespace expires it should first get downgraded to an orphan sub-namesapce before it totally get distorted. The time a namespace would stay in the downgraded orphan namespace should be 3 times the time it has spent waiting for renewal:
- 1 Year registration -> 1 month renewal limit -> 3 months in orphan namespace.
- 12 years registration -> 1 year renewal limit -> 3 years in orphan namespace.

#115

The anons of the internet and their commerce is a very very small fraction of the known and identified commerce users. This isn’t to say that we should put everyone’s information on the blockchain. I just think there should be an option. A way for anon people to access anon services and protect their privacy, and a way for known users to access transparent systems where information isn’t anon.

2 Likes
#116

Could something as bitbtc on bitshares be developed on nem namespaces? If yes, what would expiry of the namespace mean? It would be catastrophic no?

1 Like
#117

I guess so, bitbtc is just a derivate, so I don’t know why it should not be possible.
And for that example: Well, “Bitshares” wont let the namespace expire I guess…

#118

Then I would urge to not have mandatory expiration, as it would prevent the development of some stuff like bitbtc equivalents.

Maybe there could be :

  • non expiring namespaces under a generic parent namespace like perm.bitbtc
  • expiring but renewable by anyone. Remember someone renewed hotmail.com when ms had forgotten to do it?
  • expiring and renewable only by owner. Not sure this one is needed…
1 Like
#119

renewable by anyone is a interesting solution for the problem

so if the namespace contains stuff of value even if creator disapeared still people able renow the namespace

its also imported u allow creation of locked assets

which mean they can be traded and all but noone not even the creator can create more

#120

@1: Then perm would need to be significantly more expensive to buy imho.
@2: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/guy-bought-google-com-google-230510405.html
That would be a major crapfest imho unless the owning account is somehow part of the name of the namespace. If someone can just come and renew someone elses namespace and then overtake the trust that potentially comes with it that’s a major flaw imho.
@3: I think that’s the way it is planned right now. At least that’s how I understood it.

#121

NEM Node Rewards are closer to being finished and Namespaces and Mosaics are going live on the Testnet now.

Which brings me to the old question, “where does the namespace fee go?”. It seems to be the general consensus is that it should go into the Node Rewards program and I agree with that but then at some point possibly change to Development Funds. But when?

I am going to suggest that namespace fees go to the Node Rewards until V1 and then post V1 to the Dev Funds. The reason why is the funds right now have a good amount of XEM in them, but that is expected to be mostly gone at V1 with very little left for dev funds. V1 will also need a hard fork anyway I am guessing, so I think that is the time to fork in the change from Node Rewards to Dev Funds. Also by that time hopefully Node Rewards will have found other additional ways to gain sustainable funding.