Need to seriously look at the cost of transaction

Technical Discussion
#21

Except for the micro-transactions.  It rubs me a little the wrong way to know that I have to pay a 1 NEM fee to send .1 NEM.  That just doesn't seem right.  I would like to see the sliding scale slide a little bit farther down so that a person sending 5 NEM was only paying a 0.01 NEM fee.  I would be fine with the 0.01 being the current dust limit.  NXT has caught sooooo much flack from people that small transactions cost 1 NEM.  I would like to see NEM avoid that.


In an ideal world we wouldn't need fees at all but fees have 2 very important fuctions:

1. Pay harvesters
2. Keep people from spamming

1 NEM really is the absolute minimum imho. Otherwise it would be very cheap to spam the network and many people would stop harvesting because the reward would simply be too small.

If anyone can think of  a system that handles these 2 things without fees NEM can work without fees but sadly noone has managed to do so yet :)
#22

I know one dev that said his coin wouldn't have fees (though it hasn't been released yet and has been in the works for soooo many months).  He was quite fanatical about this point.  I am still not sure how/if he is going to do it though.  He is a pretty smart guy and it will be interesting to see if he makes it.

Otherwise, I get you.  I'm okay with the 1 NEM thing if you guys feel it needs to be the minimum to prevent spam and make sure the harvesters are connected.  I'm planning on running at least one node 24/7 regardless of harvesting fees, but I know most people won't be like that.  We definitely need an incentive for harvesters. 

#23

Although I get your point pat I think that the minimum fee should be somewhere between 0,01-0,1. And can't you make an option in NCC to not list transactions under a choose limit? A rich person would likely not want to see his main account be filled with 1 NEM transactions.

Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are? I mean say that the government want to take away NEM,  could they just steal a password and then set the fees to something ridiculous high?

#24

Although I get your point pat I think that the minimum fee should be somewhere between 0,01-0,1. And can't you make an option in NCC to not list transactions under a choose limit? A rich person would likely not want to see his main account be filled with 1 NEM transactions.

Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are? I mean say that the government want to take away NEM,  could they just steal a password and then set the fees to something ridiculous high?


The minimum fee is chosen by the devs i.e. are set for the entire network in the software. If the gov steals a password they can set the fees high but only they would pay them. Everyone is free to pay MORE but noone can pay LESS than what the network demands.
Once NEM is more valuable a lower fee might be possible but right now the network couldn't survive with fee's below 1 NEM.
#25

Although I get your point pat I think that the minimum fee should be somewhere between 0,01-0,1. And can't you make an option in NCC to not list transactions under a choose limit? A rich person would likely not want to see his main account be filled with 1 NEM transactions.

Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are? I mean say that the government want to take away NEM,  could they just steal a password and then set the fees to something ridiculous high?


Blockchain bloat can be a serious problem. If we set the fees to 0.01 NEM minimum, someone willing to invest $100 (which is roughly 100000 NEM) can create 10 million transactions. Each transaction has at least 100 bytes length so that would result in 1GB data. That is unacceptable.

"Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are?"
The NEM software does. As long as people are running the official software, fees cannot be altered by a government institution.
#26


Although I get your point pat I think that the minimum fee should be somewhere between 0,01-0,1. And can't you make an option in NCC to not list transactions under a choose limit? A rich person would likely not want to see his main account be filled with 1 NEM transactions.

Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are? I mean say that the government want to take away NEM,  could they just steal a password and then set the fees to something ridiculous high?


Blockchain bloat can be a serious problem. If we set the fees to 0.01 NEM minimum, someone willing to invest $100 (which is roughly 100000 NEM) can create 10 million transactions. Each transaction has at least 100 bytes length so that would result in 1GB data. That is unacceptable.

"Oh and another question; who choose how big the fees are?"
The NEM software does. As long as people are running the official software, fees cannot be altered by a government institution.


Talking about bloat, how can this be solved in the future? I hope we have a solution.
#27


Talking about bloat, how can this be solved in the future? I hope we have a solution.


+1  The three main problems I see with Bitcoin is that there is a miner problem (NEM has solved this), transactions per second (Gavin is working on this with Bitcoin and I am not too worried about it right now in NEM as I think it is solvable and the devs have already spoken to this), and block chain bloat. 

I would really be interested to know if any brain storming has been done to figure out a way to counteract blockchain bloat in NEM. 
#28



Talking about bloat, how can this be solved in the future? I hope we have a solution.


+1  The three main problems I see with Bitcoin is that there is a miner problem (NEM has solved this), transactions per second (Gavin is working on this with Bitcoin and I am not too worried about it right now in NEM as I think it is solvable and the devs have already spoken to this), and block chain bloat. 

I would really be interested to know if any brain storming has been done to figure out a way to counteract blockchain bloat in NEM.
These problems should have been thought before one line of code was written, they are common problems facing cryptos. Don't get me wrong, I like NEM and hope it succeeds but it looks like there was no long term problem solving done before coding started.
#29




Talking about bloat, how can this be solved in the future? I hope we have a solution.


+1  The three main problems I see with Bitcoin is that there is a miner problem (NEM has solved this), transactions per second (Gavin is working on this with Bitcoin and I am not too worried about it right now in NEM as I think it is solvable and the devs have already spoken to this), and block chain bloat. 

I would really be interested to know if any brain storming has been done to figure out a way to counteract blockchain bloat in NEM.
These problems should have been thought before one line of code was written, they are common problems facing cryptos. Don't get me wrong, I like NEM and hope it succeeds but it looks like there was no long term problem solving done before coding started.


Noone of the devs has answered the question yet you jump to the conclusion that they haven't thought about it.
I don't know how often the term blockchain pruning has been thrown around now so yes - they have thought about it.
#30





Talking about bloat, how can this be solved in the future? I hope we have a solution.


+1  The three main problems I see with Bitcoin is that there is a miner problem (NEM has solved this), transactions per second (Gavin is working on this with Bitcoin and I am not too worried about it right now in NEM as I think it is solvable and the devs have already spoken to this), and block chain bloat. 

I would really be interested to know if any brain storming has been done to figure out a way to counteract blockchain bloat in NEM.
These problems should have been thought before one line of code was written, they are common problems facing cryptos. Don't get me wrong, I like NEM and hope it succeeds but it looks like there was no long term problem solving done before coding started.


Noone of the devs has answered the question yet you jump to the conclusion that they haven't thought about it.
I don't know how often the term blockchain pruning has been thrown around now so yes - they have thought about it.


I thought I read it somewhere. Just my demented brain. ;)

So, we are NEMBER 1. We solved the 3 main problems that some other cryptos are having.
#31


[...]
Btw: I don't get the formular at all. This is what wolframalpha shows me:
[code]max 1, x/25000 ln x /5 , 0  x  100000[/code]


Wait until you see the formulars for POI  ;D


Don't get me wrong. I'm not that bad in maths ;) But in this formular there are spaces, commas and no brackets... So it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone could write the formular down in a way so that people who don't already know it, have a chance to understand it? Thanks :)

@Blockchain bloat:
If there is a solution, I would really like to read some details.
#32

The formula is: max(1, x/25000 + ln(x) / 5) where x is the amount in nem.

I think the blockchain bloat is solvable but we have no whitepaper on that.

#33

Ok so the fee is: x/25000 + ln(x)/5
But if it is smaller than 1, it stays 1.

Thanks

Edit: And you are rounding up. So a calculated fee of 1,001146748 becomes 2.

#34

Ok so the fee is: x/25000 + ln(x)/5
But if it is smaller than 1, it stays 1.

Thanks

Edit: And you are rounding up. So a calculated fee of 1,001146748 becomes 2.


Yes: max(1, ceil(x/25000 + ln(x)/5))
#35

So has the original post been addressed or not?

What happens if digital currencies become $trillions and NEM is the front runner or one of the runner ups? 

Nobody is going to pay $1-$50 transaction fee to buy a carton of milk at the Supermarket.

#36

[...]
Once NEM is more valuable a lower fee might be possible but right now the network couldn't survive with fee's below 1 NEM.
#37


[...]
Once NEM is more valuable a lower fee might be possible but right now the network couldn't survive with fee's below 1 NEM.



I did read all 3 pages and missed this.

So lowering the minimum is just a simple patch to the NCC?
#38



[...]
Once NEM is more valuable a lower fee might be possible but right now the network couldn't survive with fee's below 1 NEM.



I did read all 3 pages and missed this.

So lowering the minimum is just a simple patch to the NCC?


It would be a patch to NIS and require a fork.
#39

How much spamming can one do anyway?  Can't someone already spam 500,000 times with a minimum fee of 1? 

I think Jabo38 is right, this is a problem for micro transactions. Today's micro transactions might be macro in some years.  No one will pay a $1 transaction fee to buy a $7 hamburger at a diner…

I

#40

Unless micro transactions can get covered by another piece of software or something.  Maybe you send that NEM to your NEMPay which has smaller transaction fees