NEM Community Fund (aka NEMtopia)


I think it's impossible to foresee what limits or paramaters make sense in the future. With a changing value of NEM everything changes... We need to be able to adjust this later (via votes?).

Hm.... Very difficult.


Unless we cap it with fiat, which is an oxymoron thing to do. :(

Have we got a choice really. One thing for sure. In a crowdfunding exercise, which this is not really defined as that (this one is more like a grant), there is a maximum one should be getting.

In fact for being fair and equitable, no one single entity should get more than a certain amount. This amount is to be defined, whether in fiat or in NEM. But looking at NEM being new and not so predictable, it is better we define it at the equivalent value at the time of disbursement.

@rigel I like the idea of putting some or all of the proposal fee into the community fund.


Capping seems hard as the value depends a lot on the price of NEM in fiat terms, probably. I am not sure what the best method is, but maybe raising and lowering via voting might make sense.

I am still a little afraid of the "the higher the importance the more it counts"-system for votes. Maybe its better than voting on a pos or pow-system, but still you can get higher voting count if you push your node with money…
or did I understand something wrong?


I am still a little afraid of the "the higher the importance the more it counts"-system for votes. Maybe its better than voting on a pos or pow-system, but still you can get higher voting count if you push your node with money...
or did I understand something wrong?

Since the Importance rises with the vested amount of NEM in the account: yes, this seems to be true.


I am still a little afraid of the "the higher the importance the more it counts"-system for votes. Maybe its better than voting on a pos or pow-system, but still you can get higher voting count if you push your node with money...
or did I understand something wrong?

Since the Importance rises with the vested amount of NEM in the account: yes, this seems to be true.


i guess thats ok for votings that are asset related or not important.
But we will have hell on earth, if this kind of voting was used for goverment decisions or similar...



I am still a little afraid of the "the higher the importance the more it counts"-system for votes. Maybe its better than voting on a pos or pow-system, but still you can get higher voting count if you push your node with money...
or did I understand something wrong?

Since the Importance rises with the vested amount of NEM in the account: yes, this seems to be true.


i guess thats ok for votings that are asset related or not important.
But we will have hell on earth, if this kind of voting was used for goverment decisions or similar...


Actually this would not be hell on earth. It would make sense. That's the whole point of POS. People with the highest balance are most likely to vote for what they really think is best for the system since they have the most to loose.
Same is true for POI only your score isn't only determined by balance.
It sounds fuck up to let the most important or richest people have the highest voting power but in a world where you can't trust anyone, so far it's the only way to got. Unless you'd like to give the most voting rights so the ones with the most computing power ? :)
You can't just let anyone vote willy nilly because there are plenty of people with plenty of time that want to see NEM burn.




I am still a little afraid of the "the higher the importance the more it counts"-system for votes. Maybe its better than voting on a pos or pow-system, but still you can get higher voting count if you push your node with money...
or did I understand something wrong?

Since the Importance rises with the vested amount of NEM in the account: yes, this seems to be true.


i guess thats ok for votings that are asset related or not important.
But we will have hell on earth, if this kind of voting was used for goverment decisions or similar...


Actually this would not be hell on earth. It would make sense. That's the whole point of POS. People with the highest balance are most likely to vote for what they really think is best for the system since they have the most to loose.
Same is true for POI only your score isn't only determined by balance.
It sounds f**k up to let the most important or richest people have the highest voting power but in a world where you can't trust anyone, so far it's the only way to got. Unless you'd like to give the most voting rights so the ones with the most computing power ? :)
You can't just let anyone vote willy nilly because there are plenty of people with plenty of time that want to see NEM burn.


Unfortunately, there is no other way to prevent Sybil-style attacks, unless we get everyone's personal information, like passport scans, and only let people willing to be not anonymous vote. I don't think anyone wants that.

Well done fellow nemsters the ideas here are amazing!

I think this could really help create ALOT more buzz around NEM.

It's a solution to a problem with crypto that noone else has been able to solve so far AFAIK.



Forgot to specify a need for a quorum. It could be based on the number of nodes on the network, or the n-last active accounts. Having only "3 votes" on some important decision (because people don't wan't nor care to being involved) can have some drastic effects on the health of this proposal.


Yes, I addressed this in the line: "at least 5% of the importance in the NEM economy must vote for a vote to be valid."

So yes, there must be a quorum otherwise a vote will fail.

TBH, I have no idea if 5% is reasonable or not. Does anyone have a suggestion for this? I think that 5-10% might work well.


It is hard for me to completely see exactly how this system will play out, but I was thinking more of a 10% number and that is because they don't really need the full 10%, they actually only need 7%.  If we make it only 5%, then really a team needs only 3.5% of the NEM population to control funding.  I am a little worried about letting 3.5% of a group control money.  Of course I know that many people won't vote, but I feel like 3.5% is a little low and I would rather see it go up to 70% out of the whole 10%. 

And I would like to see a veto set at a flat 10.5% and give it at least 72 hours.  When I say flat, I mean that basically that only no votes are counted.  So that if a veto can get 10.5% of the population, then the measure fails.  Why 10.5%, I thought it is 7 times 1.5. 

Otherwise, I am still pretty happy with the discussion and the idea is one of the best crypto has so far.



Forgot to specify a need for a quorum. It could be based on the number of nodes on the network, or the n-last active accounts. Having only "3 votes" on some important decision (because people don't wan't nor care to being involved) can have some drastic effects on the health of this proposal.


Yes, I addressed this in the line: "at least 5% of the importance in the NEM economy must vote for a vote to be valid."

So yes, there must be a quorum otherwise a vote will fail.

TBH, I have no idea if 5% is reasonable or not. Does anyone have a suggestion for this? I think that 5-10% might work well.


It is hard for me to completely see exactly how this system will play out, but I was thinking more of a 10% number and that is because they don't really need the full 10%, they actually only need 7%.  If we make it only 5%, then really a team needs only 3.5% of the NEM population to control funding.  I am a little worried about letting 3.5% of a group control money.  Of course I know that many people won't vote, but I feel like 3.5% is a little low and I would rather see it go up to 70% out of the whole 10%. 

And I would like to see a veto set at a flat 10.5% and give it at least 72 hours.  When I say flat, I mean that basically that only no votes are counted.  So that if a veto can get 10.5% of the population, then the measure fails.  Why 10.5%, I thought it is 7 times 1.5. 

Otherwise, I am still pretty happy with the discussion and the idea is one of the best crypto has so far.


It is an interesting idea. I do agree that conceptually quorum should be higher, but realistically I don't think even 5% quorum will be easy to get. Most people will just cash out their NEM to exchanges and poloniex/bter/etc are not going to care about NEM proposals to vote every week.

The veto idea is interesting. Does anyone have a counter argument against setting veto power at 10.5%?




Forgot to specify a need for a quorum. It could be based on the number of nodes on the network, or the n-last active accounts. Having only "3 votes" on some important decision (because people don't wan't nor care to being involved) can have some drastic effects on the health of this proposal.


Yes, I addressed this in the line: "at least 5% of the importance in the NEM economy must vote for a vote to be valid."

So yes, there must be a quorum otherwise a vote will fail.

TBH, I have no idea if 5% is reasonable or not. Does anyone have a suggestion for this? I think that 5-10% might work well.


It is hard for me to completely see exactly how this system will play out, but I was thinking more of a 10% number and that is because they don't really need the full 10%, they actually only need 7%.  If we make it only 5%, then really a team needs only 3.5% of the NEM population to control funding.  I am a little worried about letting 3.5% of a group control money.  Of course I know that many people won't vote, but I feel like 3.5% is a little low and I would rather see it go up to 70% out of the whole 10%. 

And I would like to see a veto set at a flat 10.5% and give it at least 72 hours.  When I say flat, I mean that basically that only no votes are counted.  So that if a veto can get 10.5% of the population, then the measure fails.  Why 10.5%, I thought it is 7 times 1.5. 

Otherwise, I am still pretty happy with the discussion and the idea is one of the best crypto has so far.


It is an interesting idea. I do agree that conceptually quorum should be higher, but realistically I don't think even 5% quorum will be easy to get. Most people will just cash out their NEM to exchanges and poloniex/bter/etc are not going to care about NEM proposals to vote every week.

The veto idea is interesting. Does anyone have a counter argument against setting veto power at 10.5%?


I am sure you are right that it is hard to get a 5% quorum as we certainly had a hard time getting people to vote on other matters like logo and coin numbers.  That said, this is free money.  Lots of people might not be interested about a logo, but when it comes to getting free money, I find that some will have their interest peaked. 

I don't really know where the line should be for quorum or veto should be, but I do want to avoid the BlueMeanie problem.  I would hate for two or three hackers that got through the sockpuppet process to be able to team up and steal more.  I know the devs could veto so there is a check, but still these kind of worst case scenarios pop in mind and they would be very harmful. 





Forgot to specify a need for a quorum. It could be based on the number of nodes on the network, or the n-last active accounts. Having only "3 votes" on some important decision (because people don't wan't nor care to being involved) can have some drastic effects on the health of this proposal.


Yes, I addressed this in the line: "at least 5% of the importance in the NEM economy must vote for a vote to be valid."

So yes, there must be a quorum otherwise a vote will fail.

TBH, I have no idea if 5% is reasonable or not. Does anyone have a suggestion for this? I think that 5-10% might work well.


It is hard for me to completely see exactly how this system will play out, but I was thinking more of a 10% number and that is because they don't really need the full 10%, they actually only need 7%.  If we make it only 5%, then really a team needs only 3.5% of the NEM population to control funding.  I am a little worried about letting 3.5% of a group control money.  Of course I know that many people won't vote, but I feel like 3.5% is a little low and I would rather see it go up to 70% out of the whole 10%. 

And I would like to see a veto set at a flat 10.5% and give it at least 72 hours.  When I say flat, I mean that basically that only no votes are counted.  So that if a veto can get 10.5% of the population, then the measure fails.  Why 10.5%, I thought it is 7 times 1.5. 

Otherwise, I am still pretty happy with the discussion and the idea is one of the best crypto has so far.


It is an interesting idea. I do agree that conceptually quorum should be higher, but realistically I don't think even 5% quorum will be easy to get. Most people will just cash out their NEM to exchanges and poloniex/bter/etc are not going to care about NEM proposals to vote every week.

The veto idea is interesting. Does anyone have a counter argument against setting veto power at 10.5%?


I am sure you are right that it is hard to get a 5% quorum as we certainly had a hard time getting people to vote on other matters like logo and coin numbers.  That said, this is free money.  Lots of people might not be interested about a logo, but when it comes to getting free money, I find that some will have their interest peaked. 

I don't really know where the line should be for quorum or veto should be, but I do want to avoid the BlueMeanie problem.  I would hate for two or three hackers that got through the sockpuppet process to be able to team up and steal more.  I know the devs could veto so there is a check, but still these kind of worst case scenarios pop in mind and they would be very harmful.


Help me get the definition right. Are we talking about a "vote" being"for" and a "veto" being "against". Or that there is a separate Veto power from a defined group.

If I understand correctly from the above, to have a veto of 10.5%, we are talking about an exercise where there are >=21% voting with 10.5% saying no and 11% saying yes, then the first round won't go through?

I am not sure how this works out to be.

Alternatively, I'd suggest this if it is not the same:

Minimum vote count = 10% importance total.

Minimum "for" is 60% of total vote importance (i.e., 6% importance) to qualify into second round for the funding.

Quantum of funds should also be limited to a certain value. In the absence of a certain value, then the quantum also must commensurate with the amount of importance one must get to go into the second round. For example, if the fund required is, say 25NS, then the minimum vote may be 12.5% instead of 10%. Something like that.

I don't know if this is possible in NEM, but can you lend your voting power to someone else?

For example if I have a running node with a high importance level, but I don't want to vote all the time but have a lot of trust in a certain user to make the right decisions. Can I somehow give him my vote so he can vote for me on important issues?

Basically the "Delegative Democracy" model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy

Plus:
Whatever we decide on …
I think there should NOT be an automatic execution that sends the money to a certain account after a successful vote.
If someone succeeds in cheating the system and rigging the vote, then 33% of the entire money supply would be in his hands and he could send the entire fund to his account.

I think the voting system should only be used in order to make a decision on what the money should be spent. Then we should have a couple of trusted community members that can sign the transaction through multisignature.

I don't think we can be 100% sure that voting can't be cheated, and 33% of the entire supply is too much for us to take a chance. So I think a community fund committee that signs off the transactions is necessary.


EDIT (makoto): sorry for modifying your post by accident! I meant to quote it. Don't worry, I changed it back.

@Mexxer: Valid point, in my opinion there has to be at least a testing phase for the voting system.


I don't know if this is possible in NEM, but can you lend your voting power to someone else?

For example if I have a running node with a high importance level, but I don't want to vote all the time but have a lot of trust in a certain user to make the right decisions. Can I somehow give him my vote so he can vote for me on important issues?

Basically the "Delegative Democracy" model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy

Plus:
Whatever we decide on ...
I think there should NOT be an automatic execution that sends the money to a certain account after a successful vote.
If someone succeeds in cheating the system and rigging the vote, then 33% of the entire money supply would be in his hands and he could send the entire fund to his account.

I think the voting system should only be used in order to make a decision on what the money should be spent. Then we should have a couple of trusted community members that can sign the transaction through multisignature.

I don't think we can be 100% sure that voting can't be cheated, and 33% of the entire supply is too much for us to take a chance. So I think a community fund committee that signs off the transactions is necessary.


EDIT (makoto): sorry for modifying your post by accident! I meant to quote it. Don't worry, I changed it back.


I think delegating votes is a dangerous idea and that could lead to centralization of power.

NEM eventually has to come to the point where people can work together and the proposal/ratification/voting/veto stages proposed here should be safe enough and hard to game, because voting is based on importance scores and not on just the quantity of votes. If people don't care enough about NEM to manage ~25% (not 33%) of the currency, then NEM has serious structural problems and the community fund won't matter then anyway.

If people don't care enough about NEM to manage ~25% (not 33%) of the currency, then NEM has serious structural problems and the community fund won't matter then anyway.


The problem in systems like this always is that only a minority really participates in the process.

The majority won't have the time, drive, or maybe even won't care enough to regularly vote on every issue/proposal that is out there. There are always a few really active community members and most are inactive.

You can expect that less than 10% of all NEMsters will really participate in voting.


If people don't care enough about NEM to manage ~25% (not 33%) of the currency, then NEM has serious structural problems and the community fund won't matter then anyway.


The problem in systems like this always is that only a minority really participates in the process.

The majority won't have the time, drive, or maybe even won't care enough to regularly vote on every issue/proposal that is out there. There are always a few really active community members and most are inactive.

You can expect that less than 10% of all NEMsters will really participate in voting.


We could "force" voting by making people pay a tax for not voting when they are eligible (people with nonzero importance and at elast 10,000 NEM are eligible).



If people don't care enough about NEM to manage ~25% (not 33%) of the currency, then NEM has serious structural problems and the community fund won't matter then anyway.


The problem in systems like this always is that only a minority really participates in the process.

The majority won't have the time, drive, or maybe even won't care enough to regularly vote on every issue/proposal that is out there. There are always a few really active community members and most are inactive.

You can expect that less than 10% of all NEMsters will really participate in voting.


We could "force" voting by making people pay a tax for not voting when they are eligible (people with nonzero importance and at elast 10,000 NEM are eligible).

Or let the importance of those increase which do vote?




If people don't care enough about NEM to manage ~25% (not 33%) of the currency, then NEM has serious structural problems and the community fund won't matter then anyway.


The problem in systems like this always is that only a minority really participates in the process.

The majority won't have the time, drive, or maybe even won't care enough to regularly vote on every issue/proposal that is out there. There are always a few really active community members and most are inactive.

You can expect that less than 10% of all NEMsters will really participate in voting.


We could "force" voting by making people pay a tax for not voting when they are eligible (people with nonzero importance and at elast 10,000 NEM are eligible).

Or let the importance of those increase which do vote?


That would be too complicated to implement practically, I think.

I think a good idea would be to issue an asset to voters that could be used to pay transaction fees.

We could "force" voting by making people pay a tax for not voting when they are eligible (people with nonzero importance and at elast 10,000 NEM are eligible).


Not sure if that would do more harm than good.

It's a difficult problem, which exists in every free and democratic society.