Proof of importance competition

General Discussion
#21




Are the robots banned from the competition?
I think they should be banned, coz they are not available for every competitor.

Is the currently shown accuracy of the importance enough?
I have seen only small changes in  0.yy % --> 0.yz %    :)


I don't think bots will help much :)

If you know how the algorithm works, you don't need bots.

Does anyone have any questions about POI? Everyone has until Wed to figure out how to boost your score.


I do think that robots help something :)

With robots can be simulated faster the transactions - and this case is much better than many other real world cases, coz the result can be seen in the importance% value. (maybe the value is not changed so quickly, but there is that chance ... just put the machines running :) )


To decide which is fair, we need to define
What is the motivation of the competition?

a) plain importance competition

b) test the POI in normal usage

c) stress test the POI.



If a), then robots are "doping";
  they are not available for all and it is not known, how they affect to the
  importance. If robots are "doping", then everyone should get few robots :)

If c), then robots are ok. But also in this case it would be good, or even more
    important, that everyone has robots.

If b), then robots are not ok.


I would vote for b, coz it is now a pre-launch competition and it is useful to collect information about POI and how importance behave in normal usage. (There have already been some stress tests with known results ...)

There could be a "worst case" competition, where is used robots etc. ...  where the people are encouraged to use NEM APIs to build all kind of apps, not just plain sending-robots.  (Is there time to have this kind competition before the launch? If we are afraid about the "gaming", then this kind of competition should be kept ... I am not sure, which kind of effects it could have after the launch. I still guess that the NEM APIs will be studied better after the launch, when people see that NEM is really flying.)



[u]Few additional comments
[/u]
I guess the members of the arranging organization are not allowed to participate to this competition  ;)  (Too much inside information)

The prize could be more egalitarian :)    For example
    1.      will get 50 % of the prize
    2.                  25 %
    3. - 12.          2.5 %



No comments ...  ?

So lightly specified rules ?  krhm ... spqr ... hmm ... who's money is in the prize pot?  :-\


I like the egalitarian distribution idea and made a similar proposal before. Anyone have any thoughts?
#22

I have no robot ( i have wife :smiley: ) count me in

#23








Are the robots banned from the competition?
I think they should be banned, coz they are not available for every competitor.

Is the currently shown accuracy of the importance enough?
I have seen only small changes in  0.yy % --> 0.yz %    :slight_smile:


I don't think bots will help much :slight_smile:

If you know how the algorithm works, you don't need bots.

Does anyone have any questions about POI? Everyone has until Wed to figure out how to boost your score.


I do think that robots help something :slight_smile:

With robots can be simulated faster the transactions - and this case is much better than many other real world cases, coz the result can be seen in the importance% value. (maybe the value is not changed so quickly, but there is that chance … just put the machines running :slight_smile: )


To decide which is fair, we need to define
What is the motivation of the competition?

a) plain importance competition

b) test the POI in normal usage

c) stress test the POI.



If a), then robots are "doping";
  they are not available for all and it is not known, how they affect to the
  importance. If robots are "doping", then everyone should get few robots :slight_smile:

If c), then robots are ok. But also in this case it would be good, or even more
    important, that everyone has robots.

If b), then robots are not ok.


I would vote for b, coz it is now a pre-launch competition and it is useful to collect information about POI and how importance behave in normal usage. (There have already been some stress tests with known results …)

There could be a "worst case" competition, where is used robots etc. …  where the people are encouraged to use NEM APIs to build all kind of apps, not just plain sending-robots.  (Is there time to have this kind competition before the launch? If we are afraid about the "gaming", then this kind of competition should be kept … I am not sure, which kind of effects it could have after the launch. I still guess that the NEM APIs will be studied better after the launch, when people see that NEM is really flying.)



Few additional comments

I guess the members of the arranging organization are not allowed to participate to this competition  ;)  (Too much inside information)

The prize could be more egalitarian :)    For example
    1.      will get 50 % of the prize
    2.                  25 %
    3. - 12.          2.5 %



No comments …  ?

So lightly specified rules ?  krhm … spqr … hmm … who's money is in the prize pot?  :-<br />


I like the egalitarian distribution idea and made a similar proposal before. Anyone have any thoughts?


I'm ok with doing that prize distribution model…

Any objections?

No, no one on the "inside" will be taking part… Trolls would have a field day if any "insider's" did take part :slight_smile:

Kept the rules simple so it's easier to follow. I didn't see the need to be really strict here… It's supposed to be fun and give people as much freedom as they would have on the live net. A trail run.
#24



I also want to try, but I'm not sure I can win. :P


i think its anyones game to be honest.. no one really fully understands how it works.
#25

Due to the limited time i have available it might not come to a very active attempt, but i would like to try. Mainly because I am convinced this is an important experiment and very usefull for everyone.
However, I have some doubts that I would like to share:


    [li]If this is mainly to stresstest the POI and to prevent people from exploiting it. Then this may not represent any future sithuation unless we would have enough info about the concept op POI.
    In other words; once the POI whitepaper is released ( if ever) or the source code of NEM is released, some will have all the required info to try to  'exploit' POI. But now we have nearly no information. Hence this is a completely different situation.[/li]
    [li]Maybe you can divide the bounty among the top X competitors. Since some ideas I have will require to thrust other competitors. ( Due to two stakes rule this will represent realistic situation…)
    But in adition to this this will be more fair if it proves that the POI can not be easily exploited. Then the differences might be minimal.[/li]


    Anyway, I am just sharing my opinion. I may be off here and completely on the wrong track.
    I hope we can openly discuss this…
#26

Due to the limited time i have available it might not come to a very active attempt, but i would like to try. Mainly because I am convinced this is an important experiment and very usefull for everyone.
However, I have some doubts that I would like to share:


    [li]If this is mainly to stresstest the POI and to prevent people from exploiting it. Then this may not represent any future sithuation unless we would have enough info about the concept op POI.
    In other words; once the POI whitepaper is released ( if ever) or the source code of NEM is released, some will have all the required info to try to  'exploit' POI. But now we have nearly no information. Hence this is a completely different situation.[/li]
    [li]Maybe you can divide the bounty among the top X competitors. Since some ideas I have will require to thrust other competitors. ( Due to two stakes rule this will represent realistic situation...)
    But in adition to this this will be more fair if it proves that the POI can not be easily exploited. Then the differences might be minimal.[/li]


    Anyway, I am just sharing my opinion. I may be off here and completely on the wrong track.
    I hope we can openly discuss this...


no bother il add you to the list. :)

i understand where your coming from about not having the tech details/specification. i think we might run a similar, competition after nem/poi has been open sourced and white paper released. this competition is to promote more active use of the beta and to give the less tech minded users a chance at winning some nem as they most likely wont stand a chance once the pro coders can look at the poi algo.

i agree about the different prize brake down actually. will confirm if changes will be made soon. probably will be 1st, 2nd, 3rd prizes.
#27

OK thanks.

I have some additional questions:


    [li]How is it ensured that there is no cheating with existing test accounts? ( I have ideas but since I don't want to give too much details I would like to have more information about what is allowed and possible.)[/li]
    [li]When will the competition be due?[/li]

#28

OK thanks.

I have some additional questions:

    [li]How is it ensured that there is no cheating with existing test accounts? ( I have ideas but since I don't want to give too much details I would like to have more information about what is allowed and possible.)[/li]
    [li]When will the competition be due?[/li]



i can see what nem is sent from where or received from where so if there is any foul play like just spending all your nem and topping it up with another test account il know.. :) i must add that to the rules actually.

you can send nem from primary acount to account A, B an C x, x, x, x, x. and you can return sent nem back to the primary account. but you cant send nem from primary account to A, B, C and then return the outgoing amount back to primary from a different account that you didnt send to from primary account. returning testnem must only be returned from accounts you have sent test nem to from your primary account. does that make sense? think i confused myself writing that :)

il update the OP when i know an exact date.
#29

...
i agree about the different prize brake down actually. will confirm if changes will be made soon. probably will be 1st, 2nd, 3rd prizes.


That is a good direction ...

BTW, that would be good also in other projects: eg. in logo competition it would be right to give prizes also to those who have created some good works or ideas and "pushed" the community to make certain direction... :)

#30


OK thanks.

I have some additional questions:

    [li]How is it ensured that there is no cheating with existing test accounts? ( I have ideas but since I don't want to give too much details I would like to have more information about what is allowed and possible.)[/li]
    [li]When will the competition be due?[/li]



i can see what nem is sent from where or received from where so if there is any foul play like just spending all your nem and topping it up with another test account il know.. :) i must add that to the rules actually.

you can send nem from primary acount to account A, B an C x, x, x, x, x. and you can return sent nem back to the primary account. but you cant send nem from primary account to A, B, C and then return the outgoing amount back to primary from a different account that you didnt send to from primary account. returning testnem must only be returned from accounts you have sent test nem to from your primary account. does that make sense? think i confused myself writing that :)

il update the OP when i know an exact date.


Very clear.
One more question:
Do I have to make the secondary accounts myself, or can I ask for participation from other people?
#31

"Do I have to make the secondary accounts myself, or can I ask for participation from other people?"

if your transacting with other accounts, they need to be fresh accounts you created yourself. some people may have old accounts that have done plenty of transactions and built up importance which could be of huge benefit to them but leave others unable to do the same as they may not have pre-existing accounts with high importance. il also update the rules to include that.

it would be near impossible to differentiate  "other people" from "other accounts" held by one person. so i think using all fresh accounts is the best way to go.

#32

ok so i have a question then does this mean the primary account and all secondary accounts can not receive nem from ANY outside accounts?  meaning that we can not post the public addresses anywhere?  also does this mean that harvesting should be stopped?





OK thanks.

I have some additional questions:

    [li]How is it ensured that there is no cheating with existing test accounts? ( I have ideas but since I don't want to give too much details I would like to have more information about what is allowed and possible.)[/li]
    [li]When will the competition be due?[/li]



i can see what nem is sent from where or received from where so if there is any foul play like just spending all your nem and topping it up with another test account il know… :slight_smile: i must add that to the rules actually.

you can send nem from primary acount to account A, B an C x, x, x, x, x. and you can return sent nem back to the primary account. but you cant send nem from primary account to A, B, C and then return the outgoing amount back to primary from a different account that you didnt send to from primary account. returning testnem must only be returned from accounts you have sent test nem to from your primary account. does that make sense? think i confused myself writing that :slight_smile:

il update the OP when i know an exact date.
#33

ok so i have a question then does this mean the primary account and all secondary accounts can not receive nem from ANY outside accounts?  meaning that we can not post the public addresses anywhere?  also does this mean that harvesting should be stopped?


harvesting is ok.

well the way i see it, on the live net are you not going to be playing volley ball with large chunks of your nem with other people/accounts that you have zero control over? most likely, on live net people will create a few fresh accounts they own and bounce nem around trying to increase importance. i cant see anyone sending 500k nem to an account they dont control and then asking for it back? its not a risk people would take.

im not 100% on that though i could be thinking about it the wrong way..

i think going the realistic route (that also doesnt give anyone an advantage) would be the best way to go because once we launch, everyone is going to be on level ground with out pre-existing accounts with importance.

how would people feel if that ^^ is how its done?

#34

...
The aim is for participants to raise their importance whilst retaining the most amount of the initial amount of nem that was provided to participants. For example, user A and user B get 10,000,000 nem. if both user A and user B increase their importance by 1% but user A retains 9,000,000 while user B retains 9,500,000 nem, user A increased his importance by 0.000001% per nemcoin spent where as user B increased his importance by 0.000002% per nemcoin spent. User B increased his importance most in terms of percent per nemcoin spent thus winning the competition.
...



"increase their importance by 1%"

- Does this mean that e.g. their importance was 2%  and later it was 3%
  or    their importance was 2%  and later it was 2.02%  ?
  (hmmm ... if all have in the beginning the same importance, then this does not
  matter, but if someone has importance 1% and the other 3% in the start, then ...)


What is the formula to be used?   
      x = (new importance - old importance) /
            (new account balance - old account balance)


If user    C increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,000 nem
and user D increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,100 nem
do they win A and B, and will D win C ?

#35


...
The aim is for participants to raise their importance whilst retaining the most amount of the initial amount of nem that was provided to participants. For example, user A and user B get 10,000,000 nem. if both user A and user B increase their importance by 1% but user A retains 9,000,000 while user B retains 9,500,000 nem, user A increased his importance by 0.000001% per nemcoin spent where as user B increased his importance by 0.000002% per nemcoin spent. User B increased his importance most in terms of percent per nemcoin spent thus winning the competition.
...



"increase their importance by 1%"

- Does this mean that e.g. their importance was 2%  and later it was 3%
  or    their importance was 2%  and later it was 2.02%  ?


What is the formula to be used?   
      x = (new importance - old importance) /
            (new account balance - old account balance)


If user    C increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,000 nem
and user D increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,100 nem
do they win A and B, and will D win C ?


user D would win in that situation.

assume all accounts start with importance of 1% and each get 5,000,000 nem.

A spends 1,000,000 and increases his importance by 0.1%

his "importance per nemcoin spent" would be: 0.1(%)/1,000,000 = 0.0000001%

so user A increased his importance by 0.0000001% for every nemcoin he spent.

who ever increases their importance most per nemcoin spent, wins.

harvested nem will be included in the total nem.
#36



...
The aim is for participants to raise their importance whilst retaining the most amount of the initial amount of nem that was provided to participants. For example, user A and user B get 10,000,000 nem. if both user A and user B increase their importance by 1% but user A retains 9,000,000 while user B retains 9,500,000 nem, user A increased his importance by 0.000001% per nemcoin spent where as user B increased his importance by 0.000002% per nemcoin spent. User B increased his importance most in terms of percent per nemcoin spent thus winning the competition.
...



"increase their importance by 1%"

- Does this mean that e.g. their importance was 2%  and later it was 3%
  or    their importance was 2%  and later it was 2.02%  ?


What is the formula to be used?   
      x = (new importance - old importance) /
            (new account balance - old account balance)


If user    C increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,000 nem
and user D increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,100 nem
do they win A and B, and will D win C ?


user D would win in that situation.

assume all accounts start with importance of 1% and each get 5,000,000 nem.

A spends 1,000,000 and increases his importance by 0.1%

his "importance per nemcoin spent" would be: 0.1(%)/1,000,000 = 0.0000001%

so user A increased his importance by 0.0000001% for every nemcoin he spent.

who ever increases their importance most per nemcoin spent, wins.

harvested nem will be included in the total nem.


While the competition is going on, the other users (not competitors) can harvest at the same time?  ... and get harvesting fees from the transactions, which the competitors are sending?

Looks like there is a strong "lucky" element ... :)



#37




...
The aim is for participants to raise their importance whilst retaining the most amount of the initial amount of nem that was provided to participants. For example, user A and user B get 10,000,000 nem. if both user A and user B increase their importance by 1% but user A retains 9,000,000 while user B retains 9,500,000 nem, user A increased his importance by 0.000001% per nemcoin spent where as user B increased his importance by 0.000002% per nemcoin spent. User B increased his importance most in terms of percent per nemcoin spent thus winning the competition.
...



"increase their importance by 1%"

- Does this mean that e.g. their importance was 2%  and later it was 3%
  or    their importance was 2%  and later it was 2.02%  ?


What is the formula to be used?   
      x = (new importance - old importance) /
            (new account balance - old account balance)


If user    C increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,000 nem
and user D increases his importance by 1% and his balance is 10,000,100 nem
do they win A and B, and will D win C ?


user D would win in that situation.

assume all accounts start with importance of 1% and each get 5,000,000 nem.

A spends 1,000,000 and increases his importance by 0.1%

his "importance per nemcoin spent" would be: 0.1(%)/1,000,000 = 0.0000001%

so user A increased his importance by 0.0000001% for every nemcoin he spent.

who ever increases their importance most per nemcoin spent, wins.

harvested nem will be included in the total nem.


While the competition is going on, the other users (not competitors) can harvest at the same time?  ... and get harvesting fees from the transactions, which the competitors are sending?

Looks like there is a strong "lucky" element ... :)


it will make it more exciting ;D again.. in the real world.. flukes happen.. :) if a fluke happens, it happens. tbh though ye wont be getting exuberant amounts so the odds of harvesting a monster block are low.
#38

updates made to OP. update to rules and start date/time(only 4 hours).

all places are now taken.

#39

Awwww i missed out



updates made to OP. update to rules and start date/time(only 4 hours).

all places are now taken.
#40

End date = ?

Can the "competition accounts" harvest new blocks immediately?