Stakes of sock puppets and unclaimed stakes

General Discussion
#60

You are still calculating percentage based. That doesnt make sense.

Total NEM amount: 8,999,999,999 NEM = 4000 stakes

Every stakeholder gets 1/4000th of the total = 2,249,999.99975 NEM.



So the example 6 is the correct one?


The examples are not percentage based. They have been made so that the currently known numbers are filled first to the table, and so is got this "template" below:

                          stak        p%         coins            coins/stakeholder
Stakeholders        1500  
Unclaimed              500  
Sockpuppt/fund      250  
Dev team                            25     2249999999

Total                                  100      8999999999


To that template is then started calculating different cases, eg. filling the p% according the shares of eg. 1500 - 500 - 250 (they cover together 75%), etc, etc.
All the examples have used that template as the starting point.
#61

Delete your p% row :wink:

- "Unclaimed stakes" is not a fixed value since there are still people going to claim (which is possible till 2 month after launch).
- The total amount of sock puppet registrations I don't know either, but I think it is somewhere said in the forum.
- I am not sure about the number of stakes which are reserved for the dev team. This splits up in more than 1 parts again.

#62

Delete your p% row ;)

- "Unclaimed stakes" is not a fixed value since there are still people going to claim (which is possible till 2 month after launch).
- The total amount of sock puppet registrations I don't know either, but I think it is somewhere said in the forum.
- I am not sure about the number of stakes which are reserved for the dev team. This splits up in more than 1 parts again.


Without p% cannot be discussed about the distribution:
When you are talking "1/4000th", you are actually talking about 0.025% :)

Yes, they are not fixed. That's why there is different examples for different values.
Sock puppets and unclaimed  were taken from the latest newsletter  https://medium.com/@xtester/nem-newsletter-7-2014-10-21-5c78d69bbb12
And the dev team's share is defined in here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A9p6QZcUoDvezVMUsp2kYaF8g_jTNPFPL5e3Tli-jaI/edit?pli=1#gid=0
(which is those percentages, which you love so :) )


You are thinking that the Example 6 is the correct distribution? 
#63

I know that even in official statements it was calculated with percentages, but that is always just a back calculation from 1/x stake. Believe it or not.

#64

I know that even in official statements it was calculated with percentages, but that is always just a back calculation from 1/x stake. Believe it or not.


I believe, but actually there was no formula as 1/x,
it was "stake spot = 4 billion/ (total account stake + development stake)".

That is a function of the stakeholders' amount, not of any constant.
First it was planned that the divisor will be at maximum 4000. But NEM did not reach so high.


... 3rd time  :)
You are thinking that the Example 6 is the correct distribution? 
#65

I don't know why they wrote it down percentage based although it was meant stake based. But thats how it is.

Your example still contains percentages, so I gues it is still wrong^^

As I understood it: It is all stake based.

#66

Ok… let's take p% away…



Example 6. Fixed stake size 1/4000th = 2.2 M to each 1500 stakeholder, rest to fund
                    - Fund 1 is the coins from unclaimed stakes
                    - Fund 2 is the coins, which sock puppets reserved
                    - Fund 3 is needed for "leftovers" to get the full total amount

                      - Dev team gets 25% =  2249999999
                      - Each stakeholder gets 8999999999/4000= 2250000
                        If there is 1500 stakeholders, they get    3375000000

                      - If 500 unclaimed, their total share is
                            stakeholders' sum / 3, because (1500 / 500 = 3)
                            3375000000 / 3  = 1124999999       

                      - If 250 sock puppets, their total share is
                            unclaimeds' sum / 2, because (500 / 250 = 2)
                            1124999999 / 2  = 562500000

                      - Because there is 8999999999 coins and the above 4
                        groups do not get so much, there is needed Fund 3,
                          it gets 8999999999 - 3375000000 - 1124999999
                                      - 562500000 - 2249999999 = 1687500000



                            stak            coins        coins/stakeholder

Stakeholders      1500        3375000000        2250000
Fund 1                  500        1124999999 
Fund 2                  250            562500000 
Dev team                            2249999999 
Fund 3                                1687500000 

Total                                  8999999999 



Looking good?  :slight_smile:

#67

As I understood:

Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.0
it was said that:

    71% [mixmaster: as mentioned… actually 71,125 %] - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    5% - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
    4% [mixmaster: actually 3,875 %] - auctioned off at a later date.


Stakebased this means:
2845 stakes - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
400 stakes - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
400 stakes - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
200 stakes - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
155 stakes - auctioned off at a later date.

Now there are not 2845 but less stakeholders. I don't have current numbers, but its devided in
- x sock puppet registrations and
- y unclaimed stakes
#68

As I understood:

Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.0
it was said that:
    71% [mixmaster: as mentioned... actually 71,125 %] - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    5% - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
    4% [mixmaster: actually 3,875 %] - auctioned off at a later date.


Stakebased this means:
2845 stakes - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
400 stakes - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
400 stakes - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
200 stakes - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
155 stakes - auctioned off at a later date.

Now there are not 2845 but less stakeholders. I don't have current numbers, but its devided in
- x sock puppet registrations and
- y unclaimed stakes


now we are getting closer...

In your text there is
      "2845 stakes - distributed to stakeholders".
You add that the 2845 is
"devided in
- x sock puppet registrations and
- y unclaimed stakes"


Think about this: if I go to some customer, who wants that I build one small building to him, he will ask the costs. I say that there is needed 10000 USD and every day 20 USD to each worker.
The customer says "OK. Will you start today. How many 20's I give to you today?"
He takes his wallet and is ready to give the money.
I say  "Well, here I am and my friend next to me. And in our van is 10 sock puppets. So is the 240 USD ok?"

Guess, what the customer will answer.

 
Now in NEM it is tried to do the same thing.
We all know that sock puppets are not real persons. The customer above will ignore them. So must NEM ignore puppets.

I have not seen any document which would justify to include 'sock puppets' into any distribution calculations.
Eg. in the last newsletter was linked sock puppets and development contract.
Where is that development contract, which says about sock puppets that
"these stakes are supposed to go ... fund" ?

Not here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19so-Jy3Gqw2KltZP-gaw3oFaHliN0OdtwZktOP4pCOQ/edit?pli=1


Also the case of 'unclaimed stakes' is unsolved. Documentation of that exists in ... ?




The equal and fair distribution was defined:
"stake spot = 4 billion/ (total account stake + development stake)"

That formula does not cointain sock puppets and neither unclaimed stakes.
In this and silver coin threads are presented so many examples, which show how senseless idea is to use "something that may come or may join".

Here is one example again:

A new crypto coin will be created and they announce an equal and fair distribution.
"We will share 2000 000 000 coins equally to all, the maximum is 2000 members"

The announcement thread is soon full. There is not known that the situation is:
- 1000 accounts reserved a stake
- 1000 sock puppets reserved a stake

After the reservation period has ended, it is informed that they have 2000 stakes, because it is not yet known that there are sock puppets. So it is said that everyone will get 1 million coins.

When 1 month is passed, they notice that there are 1000 sock puppets.
Then is invented that the sock puppets' stakes is used to a fund.
And they say that everyone is still getting 1 million coins and the coin has a great fund that will make it even better and getting greater distribution.
People believe it and give a half of their original share to the common wealth, which future is a quite open question mark.

Do you think that the 1000 members agree with the decision above?
Do you think that they feel that they have been betrayed?
Do you think that they do not wonder, where the half of the coins is going to?

Do you think that they are pleased, when they are informed that
"1000 000 000 coins will be in a foundation, which will be managed by all of us.
Those coins will be invested to projects, which will be decided in community votes.
Every vote is a finite decision and it cannot be complained.
Every vote is arranged in our digital system and every vote must be accepted by the majority of those people, who have given their votes. For example, if there is 10 votes and 6 agree, then the proposal wins.
There may be arranged votes every week. The voting time is always 2 weeks, because the decisions must be done quickly in this fast digital world."

#69

Could you rename to repeatmaster?

Last time: It was meant stakebased from the beginning on - I don't know why it was written percentage based. Maybe because its more descriptive or easier to understand. I don't know. I cannot answer this.

The thinking behind it is:
There will be 2845 stakeholders max. They get 1/4000th each. Not more. Not in any case. Even if there won't even be 2845 stakeholders (which happened). It was not wanted that anybodys stake is bigger than 1/4000th, because the goal always was to have a wide distribution.

The funds which are now created out of the sock puppet registrations have the goal to make the distribution even wider. If you have a problem with that, you are wrong at NEM.

#70

Hi, could we get an update how many unclaimed stakes/sockpuppets we have at the moment?

Thank you

#71

Hello all.

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/txid/6775108241167194338


Nice joke and i hope a nice try… hope you saw it that it is not the NEMStake Asset.

#72

Hello all.

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/txid/6775108241167194338


Nice joke and i hope a nice try... hope you saw it that it is not the NEMStake Asset.


Would have been too late anyway but the redeemer worked with the id and didn't just check messages from every incoming asset so this wouldn't have been picked up.

Question is now was it an actuall scam attempt or an honest mistake. Dude did send a legit one as well so if it was an attempted scam there would be a way to punish him.
#73

Could you rename to repeatmaster?

Last time: It was meant stakebased from the beginning on - I don't know why it was written percentage based. Maybe because its more descriptive or easier to understand. I don't know. I cannot answer this.

The thinking behind it is:
There will be 2845 stakeholders max. They get 1/4000th each. Not more. Not in any case. Even if there won't even be 2845 stakeholders (which happened). It was not wanted that anybodys stake is bigger than 1/4000th, because the goal always was to have a wide distribution.

The funds which are now created out of the sock puppet registrations have the goal to make the distribution even wider. If you have a problem with that, you are wrong at NEM.


the goal was to have a wide distribution, the anouncement looked really good:
    71% [mixmaster: as mentioned... actually 71,125 %] - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    5% - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
    4% [mixmaster: actually 3,875 %] - auctioned off at a later date.



but current situation is (through a eyes of mediumly cynic crypto person that has no time for in-depth evaluation of every crypto project):
1566.5 stakes that goes to stakelohders  (39%)
the rest (61%) goes to devs and funds(controled by devs)

dont get me wrong, i got my stake for nearly nothing, and I did no work on NEM (except some testing), so i dont think i have some "right" to own any NEM, but if u "simplify" current situation (like most people will do) you get "next heavily premined cryptocurrency, that devs developed to get rich"
That can easily lead to bad pubicity for NEM.



#74

but current situation is (through a eyes of mediumly cynic crypto person that has no time for in-depth evaluation of every crypto project):
1566.5 stakes that goes to stakelohders  (39%)
the rest (61%) goes to devs and funds(controled by devs)

dont get me wrong, i got my stake for nearly nothing, and I did no work on NEM (except some testing), so i dont think i have some "right" to own any NEM, but if u "simplify" current situation (like most people will do) you get "next heavily premined cryptocurrency, that devs developed to get rich"
That can easily lead to bad pubicity for NEM.

I agree. thats exactly the reason why i hoped that DEVs burn some stakes to raise the distribution.

If more than 60% are in DEVs Hands ist not really important if the other 40% are divided through 1500 or 300 people. Its always the same bad distribution.
#75


Could you rename to repeatmaster?

Last time: It was meant stakebased from the beginning on - I don't know why it was written percentage based. Maybe because its more descriptive or easier to understand. I don't know. I cannot answer this.

The thinking behind it is:
There will be 2845 stakeholders max. They get 1/4000th each. Not more. Not in any case. Even if there won't even be 2845 stakeholders (which happened). It was not wanted that anybodys stake is bigger than 1/4000th, because the goal always was to have a wide distribution.

The funds which are now created out of the sock puppet registrations have the goal to make the distribution even wider. If you have a problem with that, you are wrong at NEM.


the goal was to have a wide distribution, the anouncement looked really good:
    71% [mixmaster: as mentioned... actually 71,125 %] - distributed to stakeholders on the final stakeholder list.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS up to the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    10% - reserved for the core development team to fund development of the NCC and NIS after the release of V.1 of the blockchain.
    5% - reserved for the extended development team; those who are working on promoting NEM and the NEM ecosystem.
    4% [mixmaster: actually 3,875 %] - auctioned off at a later date.



but current situation is (through a eyes of mediumly cynic crypto person that has no time for in-depth evaluation of every crypto project):
1566.5 stakes that goes to stakelohders  (39%)
the rest (61%) goes to devs and funds(controled by devs)

dont get me wrong, i got my stake for nearly nothing, and I did no work on NEM (except some testing), so i dont think i have some "right" to own any NEM, but if u "simplify" current situation (like most people will do) you get "next heavily premined cryptocurrency, that devs developed to get rich"
That can easily lead to bad pubicity for NEM.



the big difference is that the devs will not be putting a single penny extra into their pockets because of unclaimed/socks.. it will ALL be spent making nem better through various projects/bounties and what not... there was an original amount set aside on day one for dev, marketing, eco system rewards.. the amount assigned for this cause will not change in any way because of unclaimed or socks... so the devs do not benefit what so ever because of it.. instead the community will by having enough funds to move forward with new projects/marketing thanks to being well funded...

again.. not a single penny of the unclaimed or socks will go into ANYONE'S pocket for personal gain.. it will ALL be spent in ways to make the nem  ecosystem better through development or marketing..

if people hadnt of broken the rules, there would never have been a need for any socks to be removed and the full amount would have been distributed to stake holders.. if anyone is to blame for this it is those who created socks/havnt claimed.
#76

original plan was 25% to devs and 75% to stakeholders.


only fair plan

#77

Looks like the socks are starting to come out again  :slight_smile:
Even this old thread by a sockmaster was resurrected. What's next? Lazarus?

#78

We haven’t lost hope yet… There seems to be at least one person in NEM who is not evil and who will assist those who were wrongfully denied… people sharing computers are the poorest of us and who stand the most to gain if helping them.

#79

This thread is 2 years old, locking it