A message to the XYM team - harvesting assumptions got wrong?

General Discussion
#1

Hi,

Around a week ago I bought 11k XYM to test delegated harvesting option for XYM. I transferred them to XYM wallet and linked them to node 00.high-performance.symbol-nodes.com which total importance is around 30% of the network. Firstly I thought it will work a bit like a pool - if anyone from the node will mine the block the reward will be distributed among all its users based on the percentage of XYM contributed to the node. But it seems the system is designed in a different way as I am harvesting XYM for over a week and I didn’t get any reward. Everything is set up correctly and my harvesting status is active so this is not a problem.

My conclusion after this test is to sell all XYM on the exchange as it’s very unlikely that I will get any reward from harvesting. It’s a pity because if the design of the harvesting system would be executed in a bit different way, I am sure that a lot of small users would love to lock up their capital and raise the XYM price.

It seems that allowing harvesting by 10k+ XYM wallets is your marketing way to grab more attention from the small users but this feature it’s not really working for them. Are you planning to change it and make it functional, not only a marketing slogan?

Best regards,
Bohucci

3 Likes
#2

I agree with you. I am on the same boat. I know now that I am set up to harvest correctly. And, I don’t seem to be able to get “lucky” enough to harvest anything. Whatever the algorithm is, it is certainly not designed to help everyone equally, even when I attach myself to a whale as if I were a remora. I am starving in here.

#3

Hi, stray sheep.
May I lead you?

angel.vistiel-arch.jp

Node-specific measures are available.

If someone else harvests, a small reward will be distributed.

If you harvest yourself, you will be given an additional bonus.

Many other benefits.
If you’re interested, delegate.

May God bless you.:innocent:

#4

Hi,

The harvest chance has no dependency on the nodes but your importance score. Some nodes provide additional bonus for all the harvesters, but usually they are very small allowance.

If you hold 11k, you would have to wait several months to get just 1 successful harvest based on the current harvest difficulty. And this could be even less probability in the future. I would totally understand if this could discourage people to hold XYM in the long run.

Always rich ones gain more profit. That’s how the world is… best way to get higher harvest chance is buy more XMY.

1 Like
#5

Hi Universe20XX,

Thanks for the explanation. That’s following all my conclusions from the test which I did.

I totally understand that rich should get more, no doubt about it. But in my opinion, the profits should grow linearly, not exponentially. I disagree that the rewards should be intended only for the rich. In my opinion, all profits within the node should be spread among all its users by the percentage of contributed holdings to the node. That would attract a lot of small users (with 3-10k USD capital) and early adopters would make even more profits as the price would go up. These users won’t come and wait 3 months to eventually get some XYM.

Another thing I disagree with is when the development team is not providing full and clear info. As you can see on the link below it is said that 10,000 mosaics wallets are eligible to gather XYM. It is of course true, but there is no info on what’s the approx time to harvest anything. Hiding uncomfortable information may work good in the short run but not on the long run.
https://docs.symbolplatform.com/concepts/harvesting.html

If the system is designed to benefit only rich people it will probably be dead soon (same as FIAT money).

Best,
Bohucci

2 Likes
#6

Hi Bohucci,

If the harvest profit is distributed to all the harvesters under a same node, harvesters would gather only around big bag holders under super nodes. This could accelerate competition between nodes and eventually kill many weak nodes. Also big bag holders under that system would create their own node and don’t let small holders come under if that decrease their profit.

For a healthy blockchain ecosystem, there should be many nodes running. For that there shouldn’t be node power difference in my opinion. Currently only 3 out of more than 1800 nodes are holding almost 10% of the entire harvesters. As a node operator, it would have been nice to have a automated system to distribute harvesters equally to existing nodes.

but I’m not an expert on this topic, so this is just my two cents.

There is no benefit for early adopters now, but I’m expecting reward comes a little later with the XYM price itself…

Best,
Universe20XX

#7

Btw, there is a website that can calculate the time it takes till your next harvest.
https://poi-symbol.com/poi_website/next_harvest_block

It’s all in Japanese, but google translation on Chrome would work well.

#8

I understand your point and it is a right one. There should be decent amount of nodes in the ecosystem but the distribution of coins among all node users does not exclude that. It could be solved in few different ways i.e. by introducing a factor which helps smaller nodes to find a block with higher chance.

P.S. Thanks for the calculator.

1 Like
#9

Ok, let me make few things clear.

On delegated POS systems (Elrond, Cardano…) you have a limited number of big players who get the rewards and share some crumbles to their delegators.

The idea on which NEM was born in 2014, and I got in love with, is “equal opportunity to everyone”.
No way we are limiting the number of nodes or who can run a validator node and who can’t; you can run a node even if you own 0 XYM.

The reward for harvesting a block goes directly to you even if you use someon else’s node.
Node owner is allowed to take 25% of the profit (just like @vistar and me are doing) or leave it all to you (like @Universe20XX does).

It really doesn’t matter if you own a lot of XYM or just 10k; you are getting about 10% APR anyway.
10% APR for a whale means multiple blocks per day, for a small fish is one block per month, but it’s exactly the same APR on average.
You can’t find any other small fish friendly system like this in crypto, you just need patience to wait for your reward.

I was thinking myself to share my 25% between all harvesters multiple times per day, just like @vistar does but I’m afraid it can be percieved badly “oh, I got a very little reward everyday”.
No, XYM doesn’t work like that, you get a BIG reward when it’s your turn.

I agree we can do better than that.
We can better explain how wonderful this system is (@Xavi can you hear me?).

@vistar and @Universe20XX I appreciate a lot what you are doing, my respect goes to both of you.

1 Like
#10

Thank you @rigel.

Node rewards motivate node construction.
And many nodes create their own individuality.

I find that endearing.
(And of course I love wealth :kissing_smiling_eyes:).

What I’m doing now is simple.
But I am sure that someday someone other than me will come up with a more complex and interesting mechanism.

That’s why I like Symbol.
It’s very interesting and I want many people to know about it.

Let’s have fun!

1 Like
#11

I harvested 22 k and got 3 rewards /134 XYM = 402 XYM per 1 moth

#12

Hi rigel,

Thank you for your clarification.

One of the big innovations is that even if you are not a programmer, you are able to create a node if you learn a little. I am one of them who got interested in trying and figuring out my way of contributing this ecosystem. ( To this point, the node setup instruction could have been a little more user friendly, in my opinion…)

This is off the topic, but may I ask a node setup question?
I’d appreciate if you could help me with the 0% node share setup.
I thought if I eliminate beneficiaryaddress from my config, all the 25% node share goes to each harvester. However it seems that still the 25% is coming to my node’s main account. I’m not sure what I should fix. I would like to avoid sending 48XYM for each harvester for each time. Too much work to do. :grimacing:

Do I have to still write beneficiaryaddress in my config but leave it empty like
beneficiaryaddress:

or should I add
harvestBeneficiaryPercentage: 0
in my config?

Best,
Universe20XX

1 Like
#13

I don’t think you are supposed to modify harvestBeneficiaryPercentage.

The first version of symbol-bootstrap had no default for beneficiaryAddress, looks like now the default it’s the node account so I guess you should set it like this:
beneficiaryAddress: ''

I’m sure @Xavi and @CryptoBeliever know better than me.

1 Like
#14

Hi rigel,

Thank you very much for your advise. That makes sense.
I will wait for the official answer so that I won’t crash my node :upside_down_face:

Best,
Universe20XX

#15

I wish that XEM and XYM bosses would study and learn from the system that Cardano set in place. I am easily on my way to earning a cool 6% Annually by delegating harvesting. The folks who run the Cardano nodes get to keep a small portion for themselves, and that is how I was able to attach myself to a super node with $multimillions in Cardano.

#16

I hear you, I hear you!
Docs are on their way to be revamped. I just have my plate pretty full right now, still catching up after the launch, but clarifying all this is on the list :blush:

3 Likes
#17

It doesn’t matter which node you are on, it just has to be on all the time and it can’t be too slow. Go on nodes with few users and not on nodes that are already full.

It counts only Importance and luck.

You can calculate that in theory, except for the thing with the luck.

But often the expectations are just too big because of wrong numbers.

Here is a small node, you can even calculate how many blocks you can expect over time:

1 Like
#20

Начинал с 11К. Узел выбирал из списка произвольно, на втором попал в актив. Через неделю получил блог, увеличил до 20К. За первый месяц с 20К получил два блока- 270 XYM. Увеличил баланс до 44К, Дальше 3 недели ничего…! Сегодня harvesting высветился неактивным, 3 недели ушли в никуда… Вопрос к разработчикам на хрен мне это нужно? 10К по 0.7, 10к по 05, 24К по 021,5… На первых, (в течении двух недель) два блока, потом месяц 0… Если я хочу торговать- я пойду на биржу, где есть более успешные или волатильные валюты. В чем тут преимущество? Кто-то может объяснить? Зачем это вообще нужно? Распродавать все? Зачем вы все это делаете? Скам очередной?

#21

Hello,

This website will give you approx. time duration till next harvest.
All in Japanese, but you can use google translate on Chrome.
Next Harvest Block

If you hold 44kXYM, then your Importance score is around 0.0005%. Based on the calculation on the linked page, you can harvest every 21 days. Therefore 3 weeks nothing is more or less correct. This harvest difficulty has changed after Binance allowed withdrawing. More people start harvesting, less probability of successful harvest in the future.

Also you may want to update your wallet to v1.0.3 to keep the harvest active. I would recommend to check your link status time to time from a mobile wallet if you have.

I hope this helps. :slightly_smiling_face:

Best,
Universe20XX

1 Like
#22

Благодарю! Подскажите, что нужно, что-бы повысить важность до следующего уровня? На какую-то сумму повысить депозит? Или существуют другие способы - как активность аккаунта (если да, то какая именно)?