Better term for "remote harvesting"

General Discussion
#41


...

Newbie: NEM has remote harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: Sure. I run a node on an Amazon server and forge all my coins there 24/7.

Newbie: NEM has trustless harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: WTF is that ?

Newbie: That means you can harvest without sending your private key to an untrusted server.
NXTer: Damn, thats nice. No, NXT doesn't have that  :o


FTFY  :D

But yeah, I understand what you mean, pat. But if there has to be a short explanation either way, we could still just pick the term that makes more sense, right?


I'm not 100% sure nxt doesn't have that. They have leased forging and I don't think you have to give out your priv-key if you lease your forging power.
#42

Ok, I didn't check that, I just took jabos text for granted.
But yeah, we don't really have to compare to NXT anyway :wink:

#43

http://pool.nxtcrypto.org/howto.html

It actually seems to be exactly the same thing just with a different purpose in mind and you have to actively "execute" payout.

/edit: Just read in the nxt-wiki (not posting link because it's german) that you don't have controll over your earnings until you request payout. So it's defnitely not as nice as funky harvesting.

#44

http://pool.nxtcrypto.org/howto.html

It actually seems to be exactly the same thing just with a different purpose in mind and you have to actively "execute" payout.

/edit: Just read in the nxt-wiki (not posting link because it's german) that you don't have controll over your earnings until you request payout. So it's defnitely not as nice as funky harvesting.


Leased forging is basically their answer to POW mining pools. 

It was a way for a little guy to get a piece of the block rewards, but.... there are hardly any fees to split, and you have to trust that they will give you your share, so it is anything but trustless. 

In actuality it was a flop of a feature. 

I guess leased forging and remote harvesting have a lot in common.  In both cases an account gives away its POS/POI but in NXT you give it away to a third party in hopes to make more money and to not be bothered with having to run and maintain a node on your own, but in NEM you give it away to yourself as as security feature. 

It is another example of how NXT was focused on money and NEM on security.  Similar tech, but different outcomes. 
#45


...

Newbie: NEM has remote harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: Sure. I run a node on an Amazon server and forge all my coins there 24/7.

Newbie: NEM has trustless harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: WTF is that ?


FTFY  :D

You make a good point though. When comparing it with other forging mechanisms then i agree trustless really is more apt.
I'm still 100% sure you'll have to explain both secure and trustless to people either way.


Right, in reality I knew when writing that most NXTers would just deflect the question.  But regardless they can't answer yes.  Calling it trustless harvesting clearly means that NEM has something that they don't. 
#46

Ok, I didn't check that, I just took jabos text for granted.
But yeah, we don't really have to compare to NXT anyway ;)


Everything I say that concerns tech, specs, and code should be taken as entertainment content.  ;D
#47

Some people on telegram didn't like "trustless" because in the dictionary of means without trust. Some people might get confused.

Back to secure harvesting?

#48

Some people on telegram didn't like "trustless" because in the dictionary of means without trust. Some people might get confused.

Back to secure harvesting?


Did the crowd on the telegram just voice the same opinion as I did ? Is the world coming to an end ?
#49

Secure harvesting is a no go, because it implies that local harvesting is just unsafe, which again is not true (please read the posts in this thread).

Trustless is e.g. translated to german "unreliable". I don't know for sure, but I expect this problem for several languages.

So, I see only one solution: We use the term "proxy harvesting", and people will be like "wtf is that?" and we have to explain (FAQ) etc. That way it isn't understood wrong in the first place at least, it is just "not understood" and that is easy to solve (give simple to understand explanations).

#50

Secure harvesting is a no go, because it implies that local harvesting is just unsafe, which again is not true (please read the posts in this thread).

Trustless is e.g. translated to german "unreliable". I don't know for sure, but I expect this problem for several languages.

So, I see only one solution: We use the term "proxy harvesting", and people will be like "wtf is that?" and we have to explain (FAQ) etc. That way it isn't understood wrong in the first place at least, it is just "not understood" and that is easy to solve (give simple to understand explanations).


This topic needs a vote or a decision by the devs.
#51

Every vote has a good discussion ahead :wink:

#52


...

Newbie: NEM has remote harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: Sure. I run a node on an Amazon server and forge all my coins there 24/7.

Newbie: NEM has trustless harvesting. Does NXT have that too?
NXTer: WTF is that ?


FTFY  :D

You make a good point though. When comparing it with other forging mechanisms then i agree trustless really is more apt.
I'm still 100% sure you'll have to explain both secure and trustless to people either way.


yeah makes no odds what its called.. it wont make any more sense than it does now..
#53

Ok I only see one really good solution. (This will of course not happen before launch, but I think that is the way to go.)


    [li]When you log into a wallet the first time, you will only see ONE button: "Activate harvesting".[/li]
    [li]When you click on that button, a popup window is displayed, which informs you that the activation will take about 6 hours and cost 6 XEM fee. To proceed you have to enter your wallet password and confirm.[/li]
    [li]Now the "Activate harvesting" button switches to "Activating harvesting… (approx. x hours remaining)" and the button is disabled (not clickable).[/li]
    [li]360 blocks (6 hours) later the button switches from "Activating harvesting… (approx. x hours remaining)" to "Start harvesting". You can now click on it to start harvesting.[/li]
    [li]Now the "Start harvesting" button switches to "Stop harvesting".[/li]


    If for whatever reason someone wants to use local harvesting instead of default harvesting (=remote harvesting), you have to go to Settings -> Harvesting Options -> Switch local harvesting ON:
    [url=http://postimage.org/]

    This is of course only possible, if default harvesting (=remote harvesting) is not running and not activated. So this is how it goes:

      [li]Default harvesting is not activated and not running: You can just switch local harvesting ON.[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activated but not running: When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that the activation of local harvesting will take approx. 6 hours and costs 6 XEM fee. You can cancel this or confirm. (When you confirm it actually does not "switch on" local harvesting but switches off default harvesting. But in fact this will be the same.)[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activated and running: When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that switching to local harvesting will a) stop your current harvesting and b) activate local harvesting which will take approx. 6 hours and costs 6 XEM fee. You can cancel this or confirm. (Again, when you confirm it actually does not "switch on" local harvesting but switches off default harvesting. But in fact this will be the same.)[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activating… (in progress): When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that you have to wait for the activation to be done.[/li]
#54


This is imho - and i really don't want to offend you - a really bad solution. If I'm new to this and so much stuff is thrown at me then I quit and goto NXT were it's a single click. We'd also need a way to let him a select a remote NIS to harvest with and a way to find out if a remote NIS has still free places to harvest or allows harvesting at all.

I find the current solution to be way better. Put a question mark next to secure harvesting that the user can click and it'll show him what's up with it.

I though you don't consider local harvesting insecure ? Now you wanna make secure harvesting default at the expense of UX ?

So you think an activation that needs to be done ONCE is already too much? From there on people can just switch it on and off...

@Remoe NIS: This is a completely different topic, since it has nothing to do with remote harvesting.

I still don't like to call "local harvesting" generally unsecure, but I don't see a reason, why "remote harvesting" should not be default.


I think it is too much for the potential gain. Every where a user can just click start %insert term for creating blocks% and that's it. It just, right of the bet seems way more confusing to the user.
I think the way it is right now is just fine. A regular 0815 user just harvests locally which is fine because he prob won't havest 24/7 and advanced users can use remote harvesting if they are so inclined.

Semantics. Remote harvesting has a lot to do with a remote NIS. Secure harvesting doesn't :P
#55

Ok I only see one really good solution. (This will of course not happen before launch, but I think that is the way to go.)


    [li]When you log into a wallet the first time, you will only see ONE button: "Activate harvesting".[/li]
    [li]When you click on that button, a popup window is displayed, which informs you that the activation will take about 6 hours and cost 6 XEM fee. To proceed you have to enter your wallet password and confirm.[/li]
    [li]Now the "Activate harvesting" button switches to "Activating harvesting... (approx. x hours remaining)" and the button is disabled (not clickable).[/li]
    [li]360 blocks (6 hours) later the button switches from "Activating harvesting... (approx. x hours remaining)" to "Start harvesting". You can now click on it to start harvesting.[/li]
    [li]Now the "Start harvesting" button switches to "Stop harvesting".[/li]


    If for whatever reason someone wants to use local harvesting instead of default harvesting (=remote harvesting), you have to go to Settings -> Harvesting Options -> Switch local harvesting ON:
    [url=http://postimage.org/][img width=160 height=31]http://s27.postimg.org/n468op93n/local_harvesting_switch.png[/img]

    This is of course only possible, if default harvesting (=remote harvesting) is not running and not activated. So this is how it goes:

      [li]Default harvesting is not activated and not running: You can just switch local harvesting ON.[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activated but not running: When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that the activation of local harvesting will take approx. 6 hours and costs 6 XEM fee. You can cancel this or confirm. (When you confirm it actually does not "switch on" local harvesting but switches off default harvesting. But in fact this will be the same.)[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activated and running: When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that switching to local harvesting will a) stop your current harvesting and b) activate local harvesting which will take approx. 6 hours and costs 6 XEM fee. You can cancel this or confirm. (Again, when you confirm it actually does not "switch on" local harvesting but switches off default harvesting. But in fact this will be the same.)[/li]
      [li]Default harvesting is activating... (in progress): When you try to switch on local harvesting, a warning appears, which tells you that you have to wait for the activation to be done.[/li]



This is imho - and i really don't want to offend you - a really bad solution. If I'm new to this and so much stuff is thrown at me then I quit and goto NXT were it's a single click. We'd also need a way to let him a select a remote NIS to harvest with and a way to find out if a remote NIS has still free places to harvest or allows harvesting at all.

I find the current solution to be way better. Put a question mark next to secure harvesting that the user can click and it'll show him what's up with it.

I though you don't consider local harvesting insecure ? Now you wanna make secure harvesting default at the expense of UX ?
#56

when possible user experience should always come first in my opinion. 

#57

This is imho - and i really don't want to offend you - a really bad solution. If I'm new to this and so much stuff is thrown at me then I quit and goto NXT were it's a single click. We'd also need a way to let him a select a remote NIS to harvest with and a way to find out if a remote NIS has still free places to harvest or allows harvesting at all.

I find the current solution to be way better. Put a question mark next to secure harvesting that the user can click and it'll show him what's up with it.

I though you don't consider local harvesting insecure ? Now you wanna make secure harvesting default at the expense of UX ?

So you think an activation that needs to be done ONCE is already too much? From there on people can just switch it on and off...

@Remoe NIS: This is a completely different topic, since it has nothing to do with remote harvesting.

I still don't like to call "local harvesting" generally unsecure, but I don't see a reason, why "remote harvesting" should not be default.
#58

Well I think a onetime wait for 6 hours (and the client doesnt even have to be running in that wait time [maybe we should add that information to the popup, when activating remote harvesting!]) is not that big of a deal. I just don't see it, sorry.
Quite the contrary: I think it is better for average joes if they do that once, because then at any time later IF they should use a remote NIS at some point, they can still use harvesting and won't be confronted with a "nope, not possible" error…

@Semantics: Yeah… Of course I was referring to this: "We'd also need a way to let him select a remote NIS to harvest with and a way to find out if a remote NIS has still free places to harvest or allows harvesting at all.". This is only true, if a user decides to use a remote NIS. But since "remote harvesting" works perfectly fine for remote AND local NISes… There is no point in that argument.

#59

I throw the term "Delegated Harvesting" into this round :slight_smile:

#60

I like it, although I am not sure if it is any better regarding "intuitive" understanding compared to "proxy harvesting". Both terms will need further explanation for average joes, but "proxy harvesting" seems to be closer to what really happens.