A concern that was raised yesterday is that no matter what we decide one dev controlled account will be holding loads of NEM which will look like the devs withheld a huge chunk of NEM.
People will use that for FUD no matter what.
I do differ on dealing with FUDsters and trolls to some extent though. I think many times the best way to meet them is with very short, clear, and concise posts. Not to meet trolling with more trolling, or just ignoring, but to meet trolling with truth. I think it is when things are unclear and ambiguous is when trolls can do the most damage.
respond with very short and clear statements and I have always respected that.
I like this approach, and it certainly makes sense.
A concern that was raised yesterday is that no matter what we decide one dev controlled account will be holding loads of NEM which will look like the devs withheld a huge chunk of NEM.
People will use that for FUD no matter what.
You will always get it, but i wouldn't be discouraged by it - it's an inevitable truth in a market whereby profits are big and peoples appetites and greed for it are bigger.
I've confidence that things will resolve in time, and i know given how the devs have worked thus far, decisions will be reached that are for the betterment of NEM. My only worry is seeing the FUDsters get to the devs and clouding their judgement.
Be sure to take regular time outs when dealing with such nonesense guys ;)
A concern that was raised yesterday is that no matter what we decide one dev controlled account will be holding loads of NEM which will look like the devs withheld a huge chunk of NEM.
People will use that for FUD no matter what.
Is anybody throwing around any ideas about this? Has any other crypto successfully navigated a similar situation and came out in the clear?
A concern that was raised yesterday is that no matter what we decide one dev controlled account will be holding loads of NEM which will look like the devs withheld a huge chunk of NEM.
People will use that for FUD no matter what.
Is anybody throwing around any ideas about this? Has any other crypto successfully navigated a similar situation and came out in the clear?
To my knowledge no crypto has not either kept a large portion or payedout everything to stakeholders. Which is my people see it so black and white. They're stuck in this narrow mindset that everything other than giving everything to original stakeholders is unfair and blabla. You can have the best intentions - doesn't matter. You pay them or they spread crap. Tired of this game.
At this point pretty much all ideas sound less then optimal so we might just end up doing on all of them.
A concern that was raised yesterday is that no matter what we decide one dev controlled account will be holding loads of NEM which will look like the devs withheld a huge chunk of NEM.
People will use that for FUD no matter what.
Is anybody throwing around any ideas about this? Has any other crypto successfully navigated a similar situation and came out in the clear?
To my knowledge no crypto has not either kept a large portion or payedout everything to stakeholders. Which is my people see it so black and white. They're stuck in this narrow mindset that everything other than giving everything to original stakeholders is unfair and blabla. You can have the best intentions - doesn't matter. You pay them or they spread crap. Tired of this game.
At this point pretty much all ideas sound less then optimal so we might just end up doing on all of them.
I have suggested a few ideas and read many many more. I have to also agree that all are less than optimal. I have still yet to see that win-win-win combination the makes me warm and ticklish inside.
In life sometimes we have to make hard choices and stick with them, where no matter what somebody or something will get shorted. I know you are thinking a lot about this, more so than somebody that just trolls a couple of lines on BTT after thinking about it for just 5 minutes. Keep up the good work man!
I have a few idea what could happen with the NEM from unclaimed stakes:
It is a very bad idea to keep them back for any future use in the hand of a single person.
If they get hacked nobody will believe them, it will always smell like scam.
How many treasure keepers of other coins have we seen run away with community funds in the past?
Changes in the NEM team will happen and lets not make the mistakes of others again and again.
Pay interest of X% per month would encourage people to buy more instead of dumping them.
Increase amount of NEM each stakeholder gets, so distribution will be 75% for the community as it was intended in the first place.
An invest fund is not a good idea i think, there is now profitable company in crypto world right now that can keep pace with rapid price changes.
For example the fund invests 10Mio NEM in a company and price of NEM will go from 2,5 BTC to 25 BTC/1Mio NEM. That company will never be able to
pay back the 10Mio NEM. People can invest in NEM Assets later but should not be forced to right now.
The nem stakes taken away are part of the stakeholder community fund and they should be returned to the stakeholder community.
One way or another perhaps the stakeholder should have the opportunity to choose and not be forded buy the dev team.
The stakeholders are right now in the mercy of the devs, and that should not be abused.
I have a few idea what could happen with the NEM from unclaimed stakes:
It is a very bad idea to keep them back for any future use in the hand of a single person.
If they get hacked nobody will believe them, it will always smell like scam.
How many treasure keepers of other coins have we seen run away with community funds in the past?
Changes in the NEM team will happen and lets not make the mistakes of others again and again.
Pay interest of X% per month would encourage people to buy more instead of dumping them.
Increase amount of NEM each stakeholder gets, so distribution will be 75% for the community as it was intended in the first place.
An invest fund is not a good idea i think, there is now profitable company in crypto world right now that can keep pace with rapid price changes.
For example the fund invests 10Mio NEM in a company and price of NEM will go from 2,5 BTC to 25 BTC/1Mio NEM. That company will never be able to
pay back the 10Mio NEM. People can invest in NEM Assets later but should not be forced to right now.
The nem stakes taken away are part of the stakeholder community fund and they should be returned to the stakeholder community.
One way or another perhaps the stakeholder should have the opportunity to choose and not be forded buy the dev team.
The stakeholders are right now in the mercy of the devs, and that should not be abused.
read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.msg9412104#msg9412104
also companies afaik would not be required to pay back the nem. its not a loan its an investment. in return for the investment the fund would get "tokens" of the company. "tokens" of the fund would be distributed among stake holders in the nemesis afaik and then dividends would be payed in the form of nem to all nem fund "token" holders. so the nem would end up back in the hands of the "token" holders. the "tokens could also be freely traded on the nem asset asset exchange once launched. perhaps there may be a chance that tokens be distributed on the nxt AE to those who wish to trade them the same way nemstakes were.
so we would end up with nodes being payed distributing nem and boosting the strength of the network, investment fund paying dividends to token holders, the dev fund AND the investment fund will increase the value of nem through new and improved features and services.. this is a home run combination. the possibilities with this set up are astonishing.
as for security, hopefully we will have multisig for launch so the dev fund and investment fund can be kept in cold storage and with x/y signatures required for a transaction to be made. those coins will not be stolen. the node fund can be topped up regularly from a cold storage account also using multisig.
if we get a distribution 75% for the community on top of this with out any sockmasters i think things are going to be nuts! top 5 within the first week of launch for certain.
nem is the last hope in crypto for me - for now.. but i honestly dont see anything remotely as good coming up any time soon.
also companies afaik would not be required to pay back the nem. its not a loan its an investment. in return for the investment the fund would get "tokens" of the company. "tokens" of the fund would be distributed among stake holders in the nemesis afaik and then dividends would be payed in the form of nem to all nem fund "token" holders. so the nem would end up back in the hands of the "token" holders. the "tokens could also be freely traded on the nem asset asset exchange once launched. perhaps there may be a chance that tokens be distributed on the nxt AE to those who wish to trade them the same way nemstakes were.
so we would end up with nodes being payed distributing nem and boosting the strength of the network, investment fund paying dividends to token holders, the dev fund AND the investment fund will increase the value of nem through new and improved features and services.. this is a home run combination. the possibilities with this set up are astonishing.
as for security, hopefully we will have multisig for launch so the dev fund and investment fund can be kept in cold storage and with x/y signatures required for a transaction to be made. those coins will not be stolen. the node fund can be topped up regularly from a cold storage account also using multisig.
if we get a distribution 75% for the community on top of this with out any sockmasters i think things are going to be nuts! top 5 within the first week of launch for certain.
nem is the last hope in crypto for me - for now.. but i honestly dont see anything remotely as good coming up any time soon.
The problem with investment fund is, more nem will be spent than returned to stakeholder.
9 out of 10 crypto companys did not return as much as they got in their IPO and most likely never will.
Not in fiat terms, let alone in btc terms.
I think it should be voluntary to invest into the fund. It works with nxt ae where people invest heavily in assets.
Failed investments are going to hurt nem.
Forcing people into these will lead to immediate dumping of these shares.
One of the USPs for NEM was always the wide-spread distribution.
So why not use the remaining coins (or part of them) to attract even more people after launch?
Something like "create an address, get a small amount of NEM".
To prevent fake accounts a prerequsite could be already having a BTT account older than six months. Like in the initial distribution if I remember correctly.
also companies afaik would not be required to pay back the nem. its not a loan its an investment. in return for the investment the fund would get "tokens" of the company. "tokens" of the fund would be distributed among stake holders in the nemesis afaik and then dividends would be payed in the form of nem to all nem fund "token" holders. so the nem would end up back in the hands of the "token" holders. the "tokens could also be freely traded on the nem asset asset exchange once launched. perhaps there may be a chance that tokens be distributed on the nxt AE to those who wish to trade them the same way nemstakes were.
so we would end up with nodes being payed distributing nem and boosting the strength of the network, investment fund paying dividends to token holders, the dev fund AND the investment fund will increase the value of nem through new and improved features and services.. this is a home run combination. the possibilities with this set up are astonishing.
as for security, hopefully we will have multisig for launch so the dev fund and investment fund can be kept in cold storage and with x/y signatures required for a transaction to be made. those coins will not be stolen. the node fund can be topped up regularly from a cold storage account also using multisig.
if we get a distribution 75% for the community on top of this with out any sockmasters i think things are going to be nuts! top 5 within the first week of launch for certain.
nem is the last hope in crypto for me - for now.. but i honestly dont see anything remotely as good coming up any time soon.
The problem with investment fund is, more nem will be spent than returned to stakeholder.
9 out of 10 crypto companys did not return as much as they got in their IPO and most likely never will.
Not in fiat terms, let alone in btc terms.
I think it should be voluntary to invest into the fund. It works with nxt ae where people invest heavily in assets.
Failed investments are going to hurt nem.
Forcing people into these will lead to immediate dumping of these shares.
Understand that at the end of the day, development fund should be literally development fund. It is meant to develop the ecosystem of NEM. If it fails, NEM fails. But if it succeeds, NEM succeed and nemesis holders get some of its spoils.
If we are saying that 90% of investees will fail then 100% NEM will fail without any investments into the ecosystem. Why bother then? We need to build up NEM as an ecosystem. NEM needs sustainability. NEM as it is after V1 is barebone. NEM actually has not enough money to develop more projects. NEM is not bitcoin where there are VCs willing to throw money into. NEM is left standing on its feet with nothing to hold on to. And NEM should not go up the path like Nxt where every man and his dog come up with some funny idea and start promoting it in the AE - to scam or for real - which is all illegal. NEM should not be seen as promoting this.
If we follow the NXT model, it is illegal to "invest". NEM's funds are meant to be put into a legal entity. And tokens are given to nemesis holders. It requires no investment per se from nemesis holders.
Having said that, these tokens, if being traded, will not be the responsibility or work of the NEM development fund. It will have to be set up by someone for which NEM development fund shall not be responsible for. This is not meant to be "floated" in a market. But the decentralized exchange cannot stop that. NEM development fund will certainly not open that up for trade.
Well I guess the whole thing about "A new economy based on the principles of financial freedom, decentralization, equality and solidarity. " is bullshit. Well I guess it was too good to be true.....okay I am all in. Can't wait to get rich with NEM baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
There you go.
We as a community should try to make a difference. Technical features are great but I think what's even more important is the approach we take and how we act as a community.
Equality and solidarity are things nowehere to be seen in Cryptoland. It is all dominated by greed, scams and egoism. That's exactly the reasons why we would want to change the existing monetary system but what we get atm is the same shit in a different toilet. I can't even read BTT anymore for more than 20 minutes because it has gotten so bad. There are tons of great people there I am sure but as soon as the big money moves in things get bad.
Sorry for the rant but what I actually want to say is that we as community should try to send the right signals and put our NEM where our mouth is. Two ideas that might help that:
- Distribute a part of the leftover NEM to people, like I said before. But maybe we should try to attract a specific group of people. A demographic that hasn't been in contact with Crypto before but could make use of it. This is not for the geeks, this is for the people, for the world. The geeks are already there or on their way. Maybe there are some good ideas on how to do this in the community.
- The development fund. Definitely an important thing but let's approach it differently. Let's make it democratic. Let's vote about what gets developed and funded and what happens to the NEM. With lots of people participating no one will be able to say it's just a bunch of core people managing a large amount of funds and we can avoid the problems NXT has. Let's pull in as many people as possible. Executed properly this might also bring us media coverage because Joe Average might like it. He doesn't care about the super sophisticated features (not saying they are not important) but a democratic solution in a tiny subcultural community that works, my grandmother would like that!
What do you think?
Well I guess the whole thing about "A new economy based on the principles of financial freedom, decentralization, equality and solidarity. " is bullshit. Well I guess it was too good to be true.....okay I am all in. Can't wait to get rich with NEM baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
There you go.
We as a community should try to make a difference. Technical features are great but I think what's even more important is the approach we take and how we act as a community.
Equality and solidarity are things nowehere to be seen in Cryptoland. It is all dominated by greed, scams and egoism. That's exactly the reasons why we would want to change the existing monetary system but what we get atm is the same shit in a different toilet. I can't even read BTT anymore for more than 20 minutes because it has gotten so bad. There are tons of great people there I am sure but as soon as the big money moves in things get bad.
Sorry for the rant but what I actually want to say is that we as community should try to send the right signals and put our NEM where our mouth is. Two ideas that might help that:
- Distribute a part of the leftover NEM to people, like I said before. But maybe we should try to attract a specific group of people. A demographic that hasn't been in contact with Crypto before but could make use of it. This is not for the geeks, this is for the people, for the world. The geeks are already there or on their way. Maybe there are some good ideas on how to do this in the community.
- The development fund. Definitely an important thing but let's approach it differently. Let's make it democratic. Let's vote about what gets developed and funded and what happens to the NEM. With lots of people participating no one will be able to say it's just a bunch of core people managing a large amount of funds and we can avoid the problems NXT has. Let's pull in as many people as possible. Executed properly this might also bring us media coverage because Joe Average might like it. He doesn't care about the super sophisticated features (not saying they are not important) but a democratic solution in a tiny subcultural community that works, my grandmother would like that!
What do you think?
Your proposals do resonate some good intentions. Problem with a "new community" is, it will still be managed by Devs as the caretaker and will still be hard.
The development fund, although it should be democratic, but do understand that behind great ideas are great intellectual properties that cannot be put into the open for all to see and copy, especially ideas that are not rocket science and are easy to copy once revealed. Worse is it is being copied by the competition in another crypto set up.
NEM should strive to be market leaders and should therefore, as much as possible, roll out unique offerings.
Yes I totally understand that. But to have a democratic decision it is not necessary to reveal everything, just the options.
I also know that I might sound a bit utopian but sometimes you gotta be, right?
Another idea:
Use some of the NEM to start a campaign targeting the remittance market. Bitcoin is trying to do that somehow but there could be more of a push.
We could try to find a representative in a third-world country who functions as a contact person to try and figure how to spend NEM in that country. Give him some NEM to start with as a motivation and to try it out.
Even if it's only for digital goods for now, the word might spread. Basic banking can be a lot of pain in large parts of the world.
We put up a website with a howto and all the steps necessary to aquire NEM and send them somewhere, explicitly targeted at people who want to send money home.
Just like this: [url=https://www.moneygram.com/wps/portal/moneygramonline/home/CustomerService/HowWeWork/HowToSend]https://www.moneygram.com/wps/portal/moneygramonline/home/CustomerService/HowWeWork/HowToSend ;D
There are lots of details that need to be worked out but that means we need people actually working on this. And the demand for a solution is huge because of the horrendous bank fees people are paying in order to feed their family at home.
[url=http://blog.nyaruka.com/bitcoins-bottom-billion-why-the-developing-world-may-be-bitcoins-biggest-customers]http://blog.nyaruka.com/bitcoins-bottom-billion-why-the-developing-world-may-be-bitcoins-biggest-customers
Yes I totally understand that. But to have a democratic decision it is not necessary to reveal everything, just the options.
I also know that I might sound a bit utopian but sometimes you gotta be, right?
Another idea:
Use some of the NEM to start a campaign targeting the remittance market. Bitcoin is trying to do that somehow but there could be more of a push.
We could try to find a representative in a third-world country who functions as a contact person to try and figure how to spend NEM in that country. Give him some NEM to start with as a motivation and to try it out.
Even if it's only for digital goods for now, the word might spread. Basic banking can be a lot of pain in large parts of the world.
We put up a website with a howto and all the steps necessary to aquire NEM and send them somewhere, explicitly targeted at people who want to send money home.
Just like this: [url=https://www.moneygram.com/wps/portal/moneygramonline/home/CustomerService/HowWeWork/HowToSend]https://www.moneygram.com/wps/portal/moneygramonline/home/CustomerService/HowWeWork/HowToSend ;D
There are lots of details that need to be worked out but that means we need people actually working on this. And the demand for a solution is huge because of the horrendous bank fees people are paying in order to feed their family at home.
[url=http://blog.nyaruka.com/bitcoins-bottom-billion-why-the-developing-world-may-be-bitcoins-biggest-customers]http://blog.nyaruka.com/bitcoins-bottom-billion-why-the-developing-world-may-be-bitcoins-biggest-customers
They sound good all right and they have all been thought off. It is a chicken and egg situation. But without fund, how is that going to work? NEM V1 cannot do anything with just a bare bone solution.
We cannot even get past the decision to do something. Many people will have many more great ideas. They remain as ideas without the proper support. And that is what we are trying to establish here, a method of moving forward with the fund. Already with that we see people expressing distrust without it even being a development fund yet. How can we press forward if that is the case?
Development fund could lead to accusations of devs stockpiling nem and hurt the rep long term. I think some should go to dev fund and some distributed amongst nemsters.
Development fund could lead to accusations of devs stockpiling nem and hurt the rep long term. I think some should go to dev fund and some distributed amongst nemsters.
That's why no one is planning to put unclaimed stakes or sock accounts in dev fund (besides the 155 stakes taken in Spring).
Development fund could lead to accusations of devs stockpiling nem and hurt the rep long term. I think some should go to dev fund and some distributed amongst nemsters.
That's why no one is planning to put unclaimed stakes or sock accounts in dev fund (besides the 155 stakes taken in Spring).
Could put them in a community fund that will be managed by the community :)
bro why is the link to claim stake showing a bad security warning, please see my post on the other topic about claiming
Hi all,
has a stake holder vote been discussed yet concerning what to do with the unclaimed stakes?
Hi all,
has a stake holder vote been discussed yet concerning what to do with the unclaimed stakes?
It was discussed somewhere among all these threads. A vote would trivially win for redistribution or burning, though, as the majority will clearly vote themselves a raise.