Bonus!

General Discussion
#121



Looks like my good harvester days may be gone...
the early bird effect may be decreasing as others start also harvesting with their big wallets :)

My importance 0.13% has decreased to
"0.08%importance of account to the NEM cloud"

... let's see if that is enough for harvesting blocks.)

How many nem are you harvesting with?


First I  had 1.5 M    (importance 0.13%), harvested  about 10 blocks  (4 + 4 NEM)

now during last 16 hours had about 2.5 M  (importance 0.08%), harvested  about 4 blocks  (0 NEM)



I guess this kind of statistics devs are? collecting automatically...
harvested NEMs = function( balance, harvesting time, ... etc etc )  so that there is no need to make statistics by "outsiders" like it was with NXT's forging :)


Was to be expected though since every user joining (i.e. starting to harvest) will decrease the importance of other users as there are more people that have to share those 100% importance. Of course not every user will have an importance significant enough to make this noticable for everyone in the network but since everyone is being generous during BETA many people have a relatively high importance.
#122




Looks like my good harvester days may be gone...
the early bird effect may be decreasing as others start also harvesting with their big wallets :)

My importance 0.13% has decreased to
"0.08%importance of account to the NEM cloud"

... let's see if that is enough for harvesting blocks.)

How many nem are you harvesting with?


First I  had 1.5 M    (importance 0.13%), harvested  about 10 blocks  (4 + 4 NEM)

now during last 16 hours had about 2.5 M  (importance 0.08%), harvested  about 4 blocks  (0 NEM)



I guess this kind of statistics devs are? collecting automatically...
harvested NEMs = function( balance, harvesting time, ... etc etc )  so that there is no need to make statistics by "outsiders" like it was with NXT's forging :)


It is good that your importance is falling. First, your absolute importance level may be the same, but as the crowd becomes bigger, your relative importance will drop unless your absolute importance increases by the same factor as the crowd increase.

You should not think to deep into it because what it is really telling you is that the may be increased transactions and people using the Beta. Mine dropped too from 0.15% to 0.12%


yea ... that I was suspecting :
"the early bird effect may be decreasing as others start also harvesting"

But, anyway: general statistics would be a good thing.)
Not just "good", maybe they are must for POI proofs...
#123


about the stress testing.. on the week end of 25th - 26th il have my laptop back so i could have a shot at configuring my bot to just send shed loads of transactions.. not 100% i can do it but i can give it a go. im not sure how many tx i could send a min, that would only be limited by the response time of the ncc. would there be any need to vary the amount being sent? or vary the amount paid in tx fees?


great :)
Different amounts would be good - still such that they are easy to check.
Also sometimes the bot could be extremely busy and sometimes lazy :)



Have you had time to concentrate on this stress testing issue ?  ;)
#124



about the stress testing.. on the week end of 25th - 26th il have my laptop back so i could have a shot at configuring my bot to just send shed loads of transactions.. not 100% i can do it but i can give it a go. im not sure how many tx i could send a min, that would only be limited by the response time of the ncc. would there be any need to vary the amount being sent? or vary the amount paid in tx fees?


great :)
Different amounts would be good - still such that they are easy to check.
Also sometimes the bot could be extremely busy and sometimes lazy :)



Have you had time to concentrate on this stress testing issue ?  ;)

No not yet I'm going to have a hack at it tonight/tomorrow but no promises on a working bot lol I only have basic coding skills..
#125




about the stress testing.. on the week end of 25th - 26th il have my laptop back so i could have a shot at configuring my bot to just send shed loads of transactions.. not 100% i can do it but i can give it a go. im not sure how many tx i could send a min, that would only be limited by the response time of the ncc. would there be any need to vary the amount being sent? or vary the amount paid in tx fees?


great :)
Different amounts would be good - still such that they are easy to check.
Also sometimes the bot could be extremely busy and sometimes lazy :)



Have you had time to concentrate on this stress testing issue ?  ;)

No not yet I'm going to have a hack at it tonight/tomorrow but no promises on a working bot lol I only have basic coding skills..


"basic coding skills" ?  ...you must be kidding, coz I've got a such image 'bout you that you are the "hackest pro" in these neighbourhoods  :)
#126





Looks like my good harvester days may be gone...
the early bird effect may be decreasing as others start also harvesting with their big wallets :)

My importance 0.13% has decreased to
"0.08%importance of account to the NEM cloud"

... let's see if that is enough for harvesting blocks.)

How many nem are you harvesting with?


First I  had 1.5 M    (importance 0.13%), harvested  about 10 blocks  (4 + 4 NEM)

now during last 16 hours had about 2.5 M  (importance 0.08%), harvested  about 4 blocks  (0 NEM)



I guess this kind of statistics devs are? collecting automatically...
harvested NEMs = function( balance, harvesting time, ... etc etc )  so that there is no need to make statistics by "outsiders" like it was with NXT's forging :)


It is good that your importance is falling. First, your absolute importance level may be the same, but as the crowd becomes bigger, your relative importance will drop unless your absolute importance increases by the same factor as the crowd increase.

You should not think to deep into it because what it is really telling you is that the may be increased transactions and people using the Beta. Mine dropped too from 0.15% to 0.12%


yea ... that I was suspecting :
"the early bird effect may be decreasing as others start also harvesting"

But, anyway: general statistics would be a good thing.)
Not just "good", maybe they are must for POI proofs...


[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?
#127

[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Could you add how many tx you've sent each of those days and how much fees you've payed ?
#128


[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Could you add how many tx you've sent each of those days and how much fees you've payed ?


... that may be the obvious reason : not sent so many TXs, I guess. But I'll check that ...


Edit:

[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance    Number of TXs  PaidFees[/u]
21 Oct            0                                  0.13 %                  5                156  NEM
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %                  0                    0
23                  3                                  0.08 %                  10                685
24                  6                                  0.07                      48                174
25                  2                                  0.07                        1                    4
26                  5                                  0.07                        5                125
27                  1                                  0.06                        6                768
(28 ...                  1                              0.06                        1                  12  ...)

#129



[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Could you add how many tx you've sent each of those days and how much fees you've payed ?


... that may be the obvious reason : not sent so many TXs, I guess. But I'll check that ...


Edit:

[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance    Number of TXs  PaidFees[/u]
21 Oct            0                                  0.13 %                  5                156  NEM
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %                  0                    0
23                  3                                  0.08 %                  10                685
24                  6                                  0.07                      48                174
25                  2                                  0.07                        1                    4
26                  5                                  0.07                        5                125
27                  1                                  0.06                        6                768
(28 ...                  1                              0.06                        1                  12  ...)


another small request - could you also add how much NEM you've sent with those tx ? I think this playes quite a role in POI so that would be a very interesting information.
#130




[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Could you add how many tx you've sent each of those days and how much fees you've payed ?


... that may be the obvious reason : not sent so many TXs, I guess. But I'll check that ...


Edit:

[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance    Number of TXs  PaidFees[/u]
21 Oct            0                                  0.13 %                  5                156  NEM
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %                  0                    0
23                  3                                  0.08 %                  10                685
24                  6                                  0.07                      48                174
25                  2                                  0.07                        1                    4
26                  5                                  0.07                        5                125
27                  1                                  0.06                        6                768
(28 ...              1                                  0.06                        1                  12  ...)


another small request - could you also add how much NEM you've sent with those tx ? I think this playes quite a role in POI so that would be a very interesting information.


added minus signs to fees and to sent NEMs, coz there were some
#131

@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Yes, it increased somehow but I didn't collect any data about it, sorry.

The odd thing: my NIS doesn't include in blocks harvested by me my own transactions so I'm forging mostly empty blocks :(

I'm remotely harvestiong with TDZHUD-XRDJLN-2OH4SX-HBTHRK-QJXYF5-NFDSK3-EXCQ which is collecting some of my fees instead.

#132


The odd thing: my NIS doesn't include in blocks harvested by me my own transactions so I'm forging mostly empty blocks :(



That's not odd - that's by design :)
#133





[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance[/u]
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %
23                  3                                  0.08 %
24                  6                                  0.07
25                  2                                  0.07
26                  5                                  0.07
27                  1                                  0.06
(28 ...                  1

I hope the 27 Oct  harvesting result is not caused by the robot v.0.1  ;)


@rigel: has your NCC's importance score increased after "no more empty blocks"-project ?


Could you add how many tx you've sent each of those days and how much fees you've payed ?


... that may be the obvious reason : not sent so many TXs, I guess. But I'll check that ...


Edit:

[u]Day      Harvested Blocks              Importance    Number of TXs  PaidFees[/u]
21 Oct            0                                  0.13 %                  5                156  NEM
22 Oct          12                                  0.13 %                  0                    0
23                  3                                  0.08 %                  10                685
24                  6                                  0.07                      48                174
25                  2                                  0.07                        1                    4
26                  5                                  0.07                        5                125
27                  1                                  0.06                        6                768
(28 ...              1                                  0.06                        1                  12  ...)


another small request - could you also add how much NEM you've sent with those tx ? I think this playes quite a role in POI so that would be a very interesting information.


added minus signs to fees and to sent NEMs, coz there were some
#134

...
There is light positive correlations between
harvested blocks and
                        paidFees          0.466
                        sentAmounts    0.405

But that is a wrong analysis :)              The correlation is positive though the fees and amounts are negative the more negative should cause the more harvested blocks. The keyword is the "cause": the more negative fees and amounts are causing the more harvested blocks afterwards, in this case it seems to be the next day. That the correlation function cannot calculate :)  ... must make some editions...


Edit:

when making Day-1 adjustment the correlations are better in that sence that they are negative (which is correct):

harvested blocks and

                            paidFees          -0.218
                            sentAmounts    -0.011

The -0.011 is though desperatively weak correlation... might cause suspicions  ???


But when sentAmounts is adjusted with the importance, then the correlation is
                    [u]adjusted sentAmounts[/u]    -0.305

That is quite good, I guess... it is better that it is not better  8) coz otherwise POI would be too simple...


[u]Day      Harv'ed Blks    Importance    NumbOfTXs  PaidFees        SentAmounts[/u]
21 Oct            0              0.13 %                  5          -156  NEM        -255000 NEM
22 Oct          12              0.13 %                  0                0                            0
23                  3              0.08 %                  10          -685                -409000
24                  6              0.07                      48        -174                  -84000
25                  2              0.07                        1            -4                    -3333
26                  5              0.07                        5        -125                -555000
27                  1              0.06                        6        -768                -333000
                                                                                              and 
#135

honestly I think we should continue the NEMstake process. I found out about NEM some random guy (a week ago) on BTT, he mention it in passing. We need more buyers for NEMstake. Buying NEMstake is still honest way of distribution. We need to continue selling NEMstake and NEMstake process. At the very same time, we need to keep getting the word out about NEM. 

#136

honestly I think we should continue the NEMstake process. I found out about NEM some random guy (a week ago) on BTT, he mention it in passing. We need more buyers for NEMstake. Buying NEMstake is still honest way of distribution. We need to continue selling NEMstake and NEMstake process. At the very same time, we need to keep getting the word out about NEM.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKTDMEoC88
#137


He said the initial distribution for coins would be 70% delivered via IPO to people who donated BTC.  (Note this is similar to NEM)
He said the development team would be in charge of 15%.
And the other 15% would go into a "community development fund".  This fund was not to be used by the main protocol developers, but only by third parties that were building on top of the protocol. 

He said that the main developers would be working on the core engine and making sure it went well.  But that the other money was going to be used to help start other people making innovative platforms that nobody, including the devs, had thought of. 

I think it is just this kind of thing that we need in NEM.  We need a fund set up for third parties to want to build interesting things on NEM.  When I heard this is the podcast, it just felt soooo right and made sense. 



I believe NEM was initiated before Storj. I am not sure if you have realized that but that is the very premise NEM was working on. Hence if ever, it was Storj who copied the above way of managing funds from NEM.

I believe it was explicitly clear that the development fund was meant to be "community development fund". Further, the unclaimed stakes are also proposed to be parked as community development fund.

Hence there was never an indication that the devs were going to keep any fund that does not belong to them.

These funds are meant to be used to make NEM complete with ecosystem elements AND INDEPENDENT from what the developers are working on. The developers will provide and complete the barebone platform for us all to build our solutions upon. This is all very clear and there should be no doubt in everyone's mind, especially Nemsters.

The "community development fund" is therefore a fund to be used to fund great minds with great AND VIABLE projects in the NEM ecosphere.

I am not sure if you have fully understood what some of us have been advocating, but yes, if you support what Storj is doing is then you must understand that we have been saying the same thing for a long long time and that the unclaimed stakes are proposed now to be used for that as well.

They were never meant to be for the benefit of the developers. Fudsters and trollers have thrown confusion into the equation and we should really ignore them.

It makes no sense for us to burn and it makes no sense for us to re-distribute the unclaimed stakes. Either way will not pave the way for a great ecosystem. In the case of re-distribution, it is only short term benefit for some and we should not be interested in short term gainers and speculators. What is required for a great ecosystem is the offerings it can provide and that requires funding great projects to make it happen.

That also brings about the question that we should double the amount of NEM coins in the same line of thought - it does not matter if capitalization is diluted, which I doubt anyway - that NEM will one day be such a great ecosystem that the number of coins does not matter. But what matters more is that we should keep a large cache of NEM coins to finance these developments in the foreseeable future. In my opinion doubling the number of coins has more goodness than bad.



#138


honestly I think we should continue the NEMstake process. I found out about NEM some random guy (a week ago) on BTT, he mention it in passing. We need more buyers for NEMstake. Buying NEMstake is still honest way of distribution. We need to continue selling NEMstake and NEMstake process. At the very same time, we need to keep getting the word out about NEM.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKTDMEoC88


Well I guess the whole thing about "A new economy based on the principles of financial freedom, decentralization, equality and solidarity. " is bullshit. Well I guess it was too good to be true.....okay I am all in. Can't wait to get rich with NEM baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
#139


I am not sure if you have fully understood what some of us have been advocating, but yes, if you support what Storj is doing is then you must understand that we have been saying the same thing for a long long time and that the unclaimed stakes are proposed now to be used for that as well.

They were never meant to be for the benefit of the developers. Fudsters and trollers have thrown confusion into the equation and we should really ignore them.



I have followed things pretty clearly, but was worried that things in play could still change at the last minute. 

The amount of coins still (8 vs 4) being in play is one example, or exact time limit for people to reclaim was in play being another.  I can't predict accurately when the next round of revolution will happen on BTT, so I just wanted to put this out there to hopefully knock out FUD before it starts.  I have already seen NXTers saying that devs on NEM will get 50 of the NEM to themselves and some people believing it, which I think hurts us. 

I wrote that post just to make sure that if there is any more play, that hopefully things will go in a way that make NEM the best in the long run. 

Your post reassures me and I think we think very much a like on these issues. 

I do differ on dealing with FUDsters and trolls to some extent though.  I think many times the best way to meet them is with very short, clear, and concise posts.  Not to meet trolling with more trolling, or just ignoring, but to meet trolling with truth.  I think it is when things are unclear and ambiguous is when trolls can do the most damage. 

Of course, some trolls are just trying to get a rise out of people and these I think should be ignored, but a more damaging troll stating facts that are completely false needs to be corrected with real facts.

I am not sure if he has always done this, but I have seen Coblee get trolled really hard a dozen times, maybe once be me too :o but he will usually take some time and respond with very short and clear statements and I have always respected that.  Of course everybody's style is different and there are other ways to handle it too. 
#140

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And when I thought of Bitcoin and NXT, I realized that some of the coolest things coming out of Bitcoin and NXT are actually third party.  For NXT and of particular note are CIYAM's AT code, which is basically a little Ethereum, and James' Supernet.  These have been huge developments, each of which might go on to be just as big as NXT.  Each wasn't originally planned but were dreamed up by outsiders looking for a place to develop their idea.  But unfortunately with funding they have reached set backs. 

James has been constantly accused as a scammer and a pumper, and I don't believe this is true at all.  I think he is a brilliant developer but just not so good at running things from the business end (example he just dumped NEM which was a terrible business decision).  On top of that, he doesn't make good GUI's.  Anyway.... off the point.  But one problem with James' business plan was how he raised funds.  NXT is famous for terrible bounties so many people didn't want to work on it.  Some of the best bounties were offered by Klee out of his own pocket just because he really wanted to see the tech develop.  But at NXT mostly the only people working on it are people that are whales themselves and are protecting their investment.  If there was more money being offered to third parties, it might have worked out better.  But there wasn't and James had to go at it more or less alone and try to build his project with IPOs. 

I think one of the beautiful things we can as being a part of NEM is reflect where others have messed up.  NXT whales being greedy and because there is not a good financial incentive to enter the NXT ecosystem where even if a new third party dev gave it their all, they would still have very little compared to a whale. And this makes NXT not so interesting.  Had NXT been encouraging to BloodieRookie, Theis, and Gimre with big payouts early on, they might have built some of the services being designed for NEM on top of NXT, but they didn't and here were are.  What I don't want is the next Bloody Rookie, Theis, and Gimre to start to work on NEM and then decide to venture off on their own.  I want the talent to stay here.  Not just stay here, but be encouraged and given an avenue where they can make their own good story come true. 

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Third parties may be critical ...
they or the lack of them has been one reason to fell some "ecosystems".


Greedyness is also one reason to get failed. I do not know how honestly and deeply the developers (generally) are motivated on their crypto coins. In the case of NEM the probabilities can be better as there are quite many developers: it is likely that at least some of them are more interested in NEM system's future than greedy :)