Hello AltNemo

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#21

Ok, I like very much the idea of a NEM based company and I feel inspired by some words from makoto:
In a way, you are all AltNemo, too, if you are a NEM stakeholder or join in our NEM gold and silver coin crowd sale.

Let's build a better, fairer world together


But I have some concerns about it:
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if most of NEM core developers are part of AltNemo
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if NIS is not opensourced and well documented BEFORE AltNemo starts its operations



The core team will work with any company that want's to aid the Ecosystem. AltNemo is just the first and since the idea came from someone in our own lines the relationship looks closer than it really is. If someone completely outside of NEM would have come and say "Hey, I'd like to help you guys build your Ecosystem and I'd like to start a company to do so" we would have done the same thing.

Realize this people - This is just the first company withing the NEM ecosystem. It may be our Coinbase or our BitPay.

Regarding the closed source concerns and what not.

If some company would have knocked on your door and said "Hey, I'm going to build some awesome stuff for you guys" would you have said no go away ?
#22

For the record. It was me that had/has objections to newco for various reasons. I have not been involved in the planning or any implementation in regards to newco or the crowd fund. I agree with vicvegas on many, if not all points he has made in various threads. I just want to make it very clear that I play no part, in any way shape or form, in newco or its funding round.

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#23

For the record. It was me that had/has objections to newco for various reasons. I have not been involved in the planning or any implementation in regards to newco or the crowd fund. I agree with vicvegas on many, if not all points he has made in various threads. I just want to make it very clear that I play no part, in any way shape or form, in newco or its funding round.

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If you recall, i had the same objections.
The point is AltNemo != NEWCO.
#24


For the record. It was me that had/has objections to newco for various reasons. I have not been involved in the planning or any implementation in regards to newco or the crowd fund. I agree with vicvegas on many, if not all points he has made in various threads. I just want to make it very clear that I play no part, in any way shape or form, in newco or its funding round.

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If you recall, i had the same objections.
The point is AltNemo != NEWCO.

Apologies, I forgot.

I don't see any differences to what was previously discussed except that it is explained with more clarity.

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#25

Ok, I like very much the idea of a NEM based company and I feel inspired by some words from makoto:
In a way, you are all AltNemo, too, if you are a NEM stakeholder or join in our NEM gold and silver coin crowd sale.

Let's build a better, fairer world together


But I have some concerns about it:
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if most of NEM core developers are part of AltNemo
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if NIS is not opensourced and well documented BEFORE AltNemo starts its operations

How can we face this?
We need AltNemo to be a special kind of company; a company whose first commitment must be not the company itself but NEM ecosystem as a whole.

Few simple rules:
AltNemo should avoid any competition: if company X is involved in developing a product or service, AltNemo must not develop any concurrent product or service (but it can help company X for money).
AltNemo should allow any NEMster/stakeholder/crowdfunder to be part of it.
AltNemo should inform all NEMsters/stakeholders/crowdfunders of its future plans.

This is what I call New Economy.


You raised some VERY valid points.

But before I talk about them, I want to address your two concerns. All along, the dev team has been very consistent. If anyone wants to do something and work on it, the devs are open to help. Freigeist is the best example. He took the selfless initiative to come out with the Block chain explorer. He was in constant liaison with the devs. No one else showed that sort of initiative.

So, yes, Altnemo is advantaged and yes, so is everyone else, like freigeist. Our epic projects don't need to know too much about the NIS. We treat it like a black box and if we need to get something out, the whole exercise will be exactly the same exercise as what freigeist did - Ask the dev and you shall get, and that's provided they can do it or not, now or later. So, I hope that answers your concerns. BTW, I am an Engineer and I always work with constraints and real life problems. I believe there is always an answer to a technical problem. So, one may think it is impossible, but I will think otherwise. Hence, I don't need to know and I don't want to understand the micro details of the NIS. I just want to know what it can do and then I will work my solution based on that understanding.

Now, AltNemo IS committed to the NEM ecosystem as a whole. The soul purpose is to work on making the ecosystem better. The ecosystem has a feedback loop. If we don't do it better, how are we going to benefit from it as a commercial entity? So, that goes without saying that our commitment is the ecosystem first and not the company. For without a proper ecosystem, the company has no reason to be in existence.

The issue of the "Few simple rules"

Your simple rules are in fact our simple rules. AltNemo was conceived by me with that in mind.;)

We won't go into competition with someone, but if someone wants to go into competition with us, then it is too bad for that someone as we will not drop the ball and let that someone do it. Money, time and resources would already have been spent. That is pretty straight forward I guess.

Helping company X with some money is part of AltNemo terms of reference. We even have a term for this. They are called Ecosystem Project Builders (EPBs). But if we cannot even kick this off with a simple crowdsale exercise, how can AltNemo even get there?

AltNemo WILL allow NEMster/stakeholder/crowdfunder to be part of it. If you tell AltNemo you have some big money, the case is closed. We don't need a crowdsale, we don't need to crowdfund. We just execute.

You must understand that raising money publicly is illegal and that's why we are not saying it. But if someone PMs me and say, here, take this million, it would have been a different ball game.

So, yes, we are very much in line with your "simple rules".

By the way, I filed a patent which was conceived some time before NEM was formed. I have been scouting the Internet for the right ecosystem to work with and I believe NEM smacks right into this as if it was made for the patent method.

I must say I am thankful to UP and the great dev team for making this happen, the NEM ecosystem! It will eventually benefit the NEM community anyway.

I hope everyone gets a clearer picture of where AltNemo is coming from. As far as the definition goes, AltNemo is a profit organization that raises its own funds and is now doing it via a crowdsale. No one is obligated to participate in it and can choose to walk if they do not believe in AltNemo.

It is also important to note the difference between a crowdsale and crowdfund. We ARE NOT doing a crowfund.

We can only hope that the community will participate so that NEM as an ecosystem can become stronger and better.
#26

Ok rockethead you convinced me.

I definitively support AltNemo

#27

@rockethead you may have convinced arguably one of your toughest critics with a lot of help from xtester. :slight_smile:

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#28

@rockethead you may have convinced arguably one of your toughest critics with a lot of help from xtester. :)

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Wow :o
#29

I think it's always important to look at the big picture when judging such an initiative. If altnemo executes correctly, to me the possibilities seem endless. In addition to that, putting so much energy, effort, taking responsibility and risks to build a bridge from the crypto world to the real world adds a great deal of value to NEM. It also goes to show that we are very serious about making NEM real and useful, not shying away to put skin in the game in order to make things happen.

Adding another weapon to our arsenal. 8)

Keep it up Makoto and Rockethead, we need every epic project we can get.

#30


@rockethead you may have convinced arguably one of your toughest critics with a lot of help from xtester. :)

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Wow :o

"may" means there are still concerns. I think the core devs and team should atleast put out a statement that altnemo won't get any "special treatment" that would be unfair to a rival company and I think it should be made very clear who is in control of funds for altnemo. if funds change hands that should then be made clear. while nem is nit launched and people from the core team are working with altnemo, everything should be crystal clear and transparent.

we cannot allow there to be loose ends or obscurity when an open source community, unreleased coin, and a private business aswell as core devs of the coin are all working in such close proximity.. if altnemo were to go down or funds lost or things were to go south for any reason, the greater core team should not be in a position where people can doubt them.

transparency, communication and clarity are key, atleast while nem has not launched, to the success of the plan at hand. and it is also key to the survival of a major f*%k up in this situation also.

my fear is that if altnemo were to fail drastically for any reason  via hack, scam, major system failure resulting in lost funds, or any other reason, it could bring down the entire nem ecosystem and result in a loss of trust/faith if it is too closely tied to core team, dev and marketing.

if everything can be explained with great clarity, who is doing what for altnemo, who is control of what funds at any given point in time, a clear development plan and road map, what part core devs play in altnemo and to what extent then I think this could be great. But we must move with caution to protect the greater nem ecosystem.

if a private company is to work this closely with a soon to be open source community and it's dev team, all this needs to be transparent and open for community review to prevent or lesson any potential future backlash.

I'm not sure if this fast exchange is to be integrated into the official client, but if it is I completely disagree with doing that as it would give clear favor to one company and result in a near monopoly. if it is to be in a downloadable app type of thing in the client among other apps then that is ok as long as it does not receive favor from core devs over another.

I will support.. but with caution I suggest we tread.

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#31









Then it should be made clear on the altnem.com site that funds raised are to be used for closed source companies

Is the NEWCO write up going to be made public?

I also find it funny that a "New Economy Movement" is supporting this as well as key devs are invloved.


AltNemo is completely separate from NEM, the open and decentralized movement. Just because some nemsters want to support a company doesn't mean that they can't also support a free and open movement. I hope that NEM will always be free and independent of centralized control.

Please don't confused AltNemo and NEM; the two are completely separate.

I'll update altnemo.com to make this more clear.


But yet NEM resources are being used for altnemo, people, time. There is a card on the (private) NEM Marketing Trello Board which talks about NEWCO so how is that "completely separate"


NEM is a movement and NEM software will always be free and open source, with future development controlled by the community. NEM is more than just software, however, it is a movement. We are working to create a new economy together and that is not changed by selling valuable gold and silver coins and creating free mobile apps for people to use.

None of the core devs or marketers are being paid salaries, so I so no reason why people can't use their time to help work to create a company that hasn't yet been created yet. It's really unrealistic to think that a crypto currency can be successful without a vibrant ecosystem. Besides rockethead, no one has really stepped forward to help create projects that use NEM. He has been working full time for NEM for months, promoting NEM and writing most of the newsletters, all without any salary.


So you want people to spend time and resources on making apps for a product that is in alpha where there could be delays on the release and maybe some changes to the system?


Yes. I want people to get involved in NEM more.


How? At this point in time it is pointless to develop stuff for nem because it's still alpha and NIS isn't even open source.
How are people supposed to build something on top of NEM if people can't even tell what the final NIS Api will look like?


how have people done it up to now ? It's not like noone has built stuff on top of the API. If the API changes, the programm will need to change - big deal.
Also a mobile app isn't only comprised of API calls is it ?. People could have easily starting building an app without needing any specs from NIS.


Ture but unless NIS is opensource it is hard to build something like a mobile app, for example to do transaction signing locally one must first know how transactions are actually signed in NEM, and many other Implementation details that are not public now, I coded a c++ vanitygen for nem, and i could do that because i copied that javascript vanitygen step by step, not because anyone has ever anywhere described how NEM addresses are generated in theory.

Unless NIS is open source OR the inner workings of NIS are documented and made public it's hard to build something advanced that fits into the NEM ecosystem.


Gimre explained in open on the BTT thread how addresses are generated, which is how Owon was able to make his address generator. If anyone wants any information to make something, just post a question asking for it.
#32

Great initiative. I just don't like the name.

Nemo...


AltNemo is just the name for the overall maintainer of the projects. Things like the mobile apps, etc, will have cooler names and I hope the community can help decide what to call them when the time comes.
#33

Ok, I like very much the idea of a NEM based company and I feel inspired by some words from makoto:
In a way, you are all AltNemo, too, if you are a NEM stakeholder or join in our NEM gold and silver coin crowd sale.

Let's build a better, fairer world together


But I have some concerns about it:
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if most of NEM core developers are part of AltNemo
AltNemo will be advantaged against any competitor if NIS is not opensourced and well documented BEFORE AltNemo starts its operations

How can we face this?
We need AltNemo to be a special kind of company; a company whose first commitment must be not the company itself but NEM ecosystem as a whole.

Few simple rules:
AltNemo should avoid any competition: if company X is involved in developing a product or service, AltNemo must not develop any concurrent product or service (but it can help company X for money).
AltNemo should allow any NEMster/stakeholder/crowdfunder to be part of it.
AltNemo should inform all NEMsters/stakeholders/crowdfunders of its future plans.

This is what I call New Economy.


NEM is all about financial freedom, decentralization, and equality of opportunity. Thus everyone should have the same opportunity and I think if someone has an idea for a company, they can try to get support and marketing from the NEM team, especially now that we are not yet at V1 stage. Post-v1, there needs to be some community governance body that people can appeal to.

AltNemo is just a legal entity that can support other entities in the ecosystem. The end goal is that if someone has an idea for a company, they can come to AltNemo to request funds. AltNemo will provide support and funding and help people create their project, as a separate company.

However, this is all in the future and we don't know if we will get there. We need to sell a lot more coins first :D

Equality of opportunity should be the mantra. Barriers to entry into the old economy are too big and the deck is stacked against newcomers. NEM needs to change that and create a vibrant ecosystem that continuously regenerates itself, just like all real ecosystems.
#34



@rockethead you may have convinced arguably one of your toughest critics with a lot of help from xtester. :)

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk


Wow :o

"may" means there are still concerns. I think the core devs and team should atleast put out a statement that altnemo won't get any "special treatment" that would be unfair to a rival company and I think it should be made very clear who is in control of funds for altnemo. if funds change hands that should then be made clear. while nem is nit launched and people from the core team are working with altnemo, everything should be crystal clear and transparent.

we cannot allow there to be loose ends or obscurity when an open source community, unreleased coin, and a private business aswell as core devs of the coin are all working in such close proximity.. if altnemo were to go down or funds lost or things were to go south for any reason, the greater core team should not be in a position where people can doubt them.

transparency, communication and clarity are key, atleast while nem has not launched, to the success of the plan at hand. and it is also key to the survival of a major f*%k up in this situation also.

my fear is that if altnemo were to fail drastically for any reason  via hack, scam, major system failure resulting in lost funds, or any other reason, it could bring down the entire nem ecosystem and result in a loss of trust/faith if it is too closely tied to core team, dev and marketing.

if everything can be explained with great clarity, who is doing what for altnemo, who is control of what funds at any given point in time, a clear development plan and road map, what part core devs play in altnemo and to what extent then I think this could be great. But we must move with caution to protect the greater nem ecosystem.

if a private company is to work this closely with a soon to be open source community and it's dev team, all this needs to be transparent and open for community review to prevent or lesson any potential future backlash.

I'm not sure if this fast exchange is to be integrated into the official client, but if it is I completely disagree with doing that as it would give clear favor to one company and result in a near monopoly. if it is to be in a downloadable app type of thing in the client among other apps then that is ok as long as it does not receive favor from core devs over another.

I will support.. but with caution I suggest we tread.

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We have been nothing but transparent from the get go. We may not be the best communicators in the world and some things have lacked clear and concise information but we've always tried and always will be trying to be transparent about everything so that won't be an issue.

AltNemo getting special treatment is inevitable as it's the first company within the NEM-Ecosystem. That doesn't mean that if some other company comes around it won't get just as much help and ressources. Any and all companies that have a sincere interrest in NEM will get all the help and ressources that AltNemo gets.

Bitcoin has had so many companies f**k up that people have lost count. It's still alive and kicking. Even if AltNemo were to fail - AltNemo is a seperate entity from NEM-Core and there fore a fail of AltNemo would not be a fail of NEM.

You may remember that there is/was an App section in NCC. The plan was always to integrate 3rd party apps. Think of it like Apps you install on your android or iOS device. You've got NCC. Then you can integrate that cool Exchange app from AltNemo. Next thing you maybe can get that cool App that Kodtycoon built. Again the point being - Integration in NCC doesn't necessarily mean it's part of the Core.

That is just my take on it and it might even be contrary to peoples plans but that is what I'll be pushing for with the limited power I have.

I understand why people are concerned but guys - I'm pretty sure you have a wrong picture of AltNemo in mind.

And now realize that we have a company on board before launch and get fucking excited about that  ;D
#35

It took some time for me to read the whole thread. This thread has been opened my eyes further about the future of NEM. We have some of the most wonderful people working as devs and there are some people who have this vision of NEM being something above all economies in a span of 2-3 years down the line. Having this type of skill and determination requires big balls and moreover a great stable head.
What do I want out of NEM?
I want NEM to set an example that good things do happen to people who believe in something and no matter what, they keep on dreaming of achieving it. "It's not a matter of how hard you can get hit but what matters is how many times you can get hit hard and still stand up. And only winners do this". I have been secretly following  NEM since June but a few weeks ago I decided to get involved with this wonderful project because I believe in it and it's morals. NEM has stood in very dark times on BTT in the past as we all know and it will continue to stand even in the future. And I truly believe that one day it'll end the social, economical and political hierarchy. Everybody is treated equally at NEM and everybody should try to do the same to others no matter what. SO yes, I see NEM being the only one in it's league in the future and I'm proud to be involved with such an egalitarian project.
I hope that people realise that at this stage something like ALTNEMO not only adds future value to NEM but also develops an Ionic bond between NEM and it's developers. I can only see great things coming out of this tieup.
I also have exactly the same mindset as below.


So, before anyone shoots anything off  his or her mouth, please take cognizance of the definitions of the project, the players (e.g., Altnemo) and their roles.
I hope this is useful to all whom I believe are intelligent enough to understand the clear distinctions of the roles of every entity in the NEM project, namely, the community members, the devs, the volunteers and other entities such as AltNemo, being the first commercial entity in NEM.
Edit:

Somethings worth pondering:

What does anyone want out of NEM?
My personal opinion: I want NEM to be the best in class in a league of its own.

What if someone like AltNemo comes along and be "close" and privy to the devs work?
My opinion: I don't care as long as I am assured it is going to make NEM a better system. My assumption is that being 'close' does not mean it is bad. It could also mean that they can bring in great ideas that NEM should adopt. If these ideas are great, shouldn't the NEM devs give preference and get them incorporated and tightly integrated into the NCC or NIS if it has to?