NEM is not a clone of NXT

General Discussion
#21

Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.


Actually, PoI addresses a fundamental flaw in the block chain technology. It is some kind of a breakthrough. While we are at this I may want to add the beauty of the NEM design:

The design of the NEM platform is a tiered architecture. A tiered architecture has some advantages. The biggest advantage is that it makes cold wallet so simple. Secondly, it also makes the wallet so secure from hacks. One topology is to put the NIS in a Demilitarized zone in a firewalled setup and then if anyone is to be so paranoid, have another firewall with the wallet sitting behind it. Then one can run all sorts of applications behind it and use the NCC as a window to the NEM platform. This is all so neat - a protected NCC that acts as a gateway to some huge application that can operate in complete stealth mode. You cannot do that in any of the altcoin I know of (I must qualify though I care less about a lot of cryptos).

Multisig and a pruned block chain are also a couple more features that don't come with any "proprietary" wallet.

Honestly, this architecture has made me so excited from day 1 when I got involved. Just by looking at the two diagrams that were presented as a concept, I knew this was going to be the utopia of crypto 2.0. We should be proud of this as a gem of a NEM! Having said that, we still need the rest to be completed and I eagerly await till V1 where we should witness a giant slayer.



#22

Well said Rockethead. 

And to the point that Mixmaster has pointed out concerning Robbieboy2.  I agree.  One of the problems with NEM is that too many people think it is a clone.  I started this thread as a way to start to clear up the confusion, but something more official would be better.  Maybe a write up, or a pdf, or some kind of announcement on the topic.  For right now I am linking people back to this thread when they say it is a clone, and there is a lot of great information here.  Still… it would be nice to see it collected and organized and written up a little better. 

#23

Guys I agree, POI is great, and there are some very interesting things about NEM. But the protocol really needs to its own way now and be clear about it to the public.

The reason I say POI is just a validation method is because this is what the crypto world will think. OK so it is a pretty cool egalitarian validation method, but most people wont care in the slightest. Look at burst, it has a pretty cool egalitarian-ish method, noone cares, the coin is in the gutter, look at X11, newish method, noone cares. The days when a coin could come out with a new method and gain a userbase on the back of that are over, there are new methods all the time now and most of these coins have a $10 volume. Crypto is changing, NEM is gonna struggle to really build a solid userbase nomatter what and when NXT users start FUDing against us… 

#24

Guys I agree, POI is great, and there are some very interesting things about NEM. But the protocol really needs to its own way now and be clear about it to the public.

The reason I say POI is just a validation method is because this is what the crypto world will think. OK so it is a pretty cool egalitarian validation method, but most people wont care in the slightest. Look at burst, it has a pretty cool egalitarian-ish method, noone cares, the coin is in the gutter, look at X11, newish method, noone cares. The days when a coin could come out with a new method and gain a userbase on the back of that are over, there are new methods all the time now and most of these coins have a $10 volume. Crypto is changing, NEM is gonna struggle to really build a solid userbase nomatter what and when NXT users start FUDing against us...


I may be missing something here but POI is not a validation method at all. Neither is POS. Those algos determine who get's to create blocks they don't actually validate anything.

NXTers have been FUDing for quite a bit now. Let them be as pathetic as they'd like to be :)
#25

Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.
This isnt 100% true, look at the top harvesters and see how much NEM they have. From what i see the amount of NEM you have plays a big role in the importance score.
#26


Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.
This isnt 100% true, look at the top harvesters and see how much NEM they have. From what i see the amount of NEM you have plays a big role in the importance score.


The amount of NEM is not yet relevant, coz it is the test net and the fees can be quite absurd (eg. I set one fee to 333 000 NEM). But the amount of harvested blocks is valid.
I would expect that the dev team is collecting now statistics to verify, how the POI is now working.
Are you? :)

I made such stats about NXT (Feb - June), and the result was not promising, more like it was worrisome:
In June the TOP4 NXT-forgers had still 50% share of the forged NXT's. In Feb they had 56%. The TOP98 had in Feb 99% and in June 96%.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-pub-thread-2500-pages-on-nxtforum-org-or-bust/msg33380/#msg33380

Maybe that correlated with the bad distribution and the problems to splay NXTcoins to the world.

[u]Now NEM team has really good opportunity to test all the things and features well.
[/u]
It will not be glorious, if POI will work as badly as POS-forging, will it?
#27


Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.
This isnt 100% true, look at the top harvesters and see how much NEM they have. From what i see the amount of NEM you have plays a big role in the importance score.


Of course it does. POS is still the biggest factor in POI. The point is to counteract that with the other factors.
The goal is to not make the rich richer just because they are rich and that is 100% true.
#28

by "Robbie's" definition of clone, when nem see's third party clients with unique GUI's, NEM is no longer a clone. Lol. Seeing as many coins are rather limited in what they can do, it's hardly unusual to see similarities in their wallet designs.

Granted, the majority of the public may take this stance, but then with a bit of research they'll discover that they couldn't be further from the truth - it makes sense to get the truth out there.

#29

Granted, the majority of the public may take this stance, but then with a bit of research they'll discover that they couldn't be further from the truth - it makes sense to get the truth out there.

The majoritiy does no research.
#30



Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.
This isnt 100% true, look at the top harvesters and see how much NEM they have. From what i see the amount of NEM you have plays a big role in the importance score.


Of course it does. POS is still the biggest factor in POI. The point is to counteract that with the other factors.
The goal is to not make the rich richer just because they are rich and that is 100% true.


There is still a high correlation between POI and POS, but this should decrease as network activity picks up.
#31



Please guys, try to understand what robbieboy2 is trying to say. He is not saying "NEM is a clone". He is saying "a lot of people think NEM is an NXT clone." And probably he is right.

It doesn't matter that this is not true. It matters that there are some people who think this. And it is a good idea to write a summery of the differences/improvements in a PDF.

There is one thing I disagree with you though, robbieboy2:
Sure POI is different i guess, but at the end of the day its just a validation method.

POI is not just a validation method, it is a method to prevent the rich from getting richer, which is a problem at NXT.
This isnt 100% true, look at the top harvesters and see how much NEM they have. From what i see the amount of NEM you have plays a big role in the importance score.


The amount of NEM is not yet relevant, coz it is the test net and the fees can be quite absurd (eg. I set one fee to 333 000 NEM). But the amount of harvested blocks is valid.
I would expect that the dev team is collecting now statistics to verify, how the POI is now working.
Are you? :)

I made such stats about NXT (Feb - June), and the result was not promising, more like it was worrisome:
In June the TOP4 NXT-forgers had still 50% share of the forged NXT's. In Feb they had 56%. The TOP98 had in Feb 99% and in June 96%.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-pub-thread-2500-pages-on-nxtforum-org-or-bust/msg33380/#msg33380

Maybe that correlated with the bad distribution and the problems to splay NXTcoins to the world.

[u]Now NEM team has really good opportunity to test all the things and features well.
[/u]
It will not be glorious, if POI will work as badly as POS-forging, will it?


Yes, we are collecting data and have done extensive analysis on the NXT transaction graph.

It seems that accounts that do more than just hoard NXT can boost their scores higher than people with more stake.
#32

do i need to? you have a client that looks like NXT, you have basically all functions taken from NXT, you have the proof of stake concept tuned into POI from NXT, you are building an asset exchange like NXT. NEM developers have said repeatedly that NEM is based on NXT.

How many people who think this is an NXT clone know about programming or care about that the code base is different. Conceptually and in many other ways it is an NXT clone, a distant one yeh, as i've recognized, but to most people seems like one.


The NEM client mockup was released on April 8th, which is waaaaay before the NXT client was redone and released: https://27140db10c7989253deb467f8b8faeb1fc61bbd9.googledrive.com/host/0Bwfe5MzvbH9wc1ZkSGFUYjN6QnM/dashboard.html

Actually, Loi designed it back in March of 2014.