Bonus!

General Discussion
#81

Hello fellow Nemsters!

First i'd like to introduce myself a little. I've been following the development of Nem very carefully all the way from the beginning. I'm just not much of a forum poster nor do i have skills in software development so i haven't been participating the way i feel i should have. However now with the distribution right around the corner and the discussion on how to use the possible unclaimed stakes going on i've decided to join the conversation.

First i'd like to say that the investment fund idea is the best i've seen so far. However i do not think the fund should aim to be profitable in the way of dividents and such. I feel we stakeholders already get enough Nem as is and increasing the amount in any artificial way would only work against Nem in the long run.

The profit the fund should bring us should come from making the Nem we already have more valuable not from us having more Nem.

To accomplish this i think the fund's aim should be in two things:
- The continual advancement of the Nem Ecosystem.
- Stimulating adoption by means of redistribution into the market.

Hence i propose: Nem Ecosystem Fund

The purpose of this fund would be in incentivizing new development in the Nem Ecosystem.

Every Nemster in the nemesis block would get a special token that gives them the right to have a say in the allocation of the Nem in the fund.

It could be like a crowdfunding platform where every tokenholder can pledge x amount of Nem in x amount of time in the fund towards the projects they think are most important or it could work by the current developers offering us different projects to vote on.

One of the major advantages of such a fund would be that people tend to come and go and development funds will run dry in time however establishing a system where people can crowdfund new development right from the get go would make sure that Nem development can go on infinitely. What i'm trying to say is that when the Nem in the fund eventually runs out we will already have a system in place where people can then use their own Nem to fund future development. This would also mean that all the Nem in the fund would eventually be distributed into the economy leading into a fully decentralized system.

These are just some of my ideas and i hope people will comment on them.

Also as this is my first post here i'd like to thank the community and everyone thats been working on Nem so far. Your work has been amazing!

It looks like the dream will be reality very soon.


A great idea ! There will be some technical problems that need to be solved like: treasuring, chest-keeping system etc. but these are not unsolvable I think.
#82


Hello fellow Nemsters!

First i'd like to introduce myself a little. I've been following the development of Nem very carefully all the way from the beginning. I'm just not much of a forum poster nor do i have skills in software development so i haven't been participating the way i feel i should have. However now with the distribution right around the corner and the discussion on how to use the possible unclaimed stakes going on i've decided to join the conversation.

First i'd like to say that the investment fund idea is the best i've seen so far. However i do not think the fund should aim to be profitable in the way of dividents and such. I feel we stakeholders already get enough Nem as is and increasing the amount in any artificial way would only work against Nem in the long run.

The profit the fund should bring us should come from making the Nem we already have more valuable not from us having more Nem.

To accomplish this i think the fund's aim should be in two things:
- The continual advancement of the Nem Ecosystem.
- Stimulating adoption by means of redistribution into the market.

Hence i propose: Nem Ecosystem Fund

The purpose of this fund would be in incentivizing new development in the Nem Ecosystem.

Every Nemster in the nemesis block would get a special token that gives them the right to have a say in the allocation of the Nem in the fund.

It could be like a crowdfunding platform where every tokenholder can pledge x amount of Nem in x amount of time in the fund towards the projects they think are most important or it could work by the current developers offering us different projects to vote on.

One of the major advantages of such a fund would be that people tend to come and go and development funds will run dry in time however establishing a system where people can crowdfund new development right from the get go would make sure that Nem development can go on infinitely. What i'm trying to say is that when the Nem in the fund eventually runs out we will already have a system in place where people can then use their own Nem to fund future development. This would also mean that all the Nem in the fund would eventually be distributed into the economy leading into a fully decentralized system.

These are just some of my ideas and i hope people will comment on them.

Also as this is my first post here i'd like to thank the community and everyone thats been working on Nem so far. Your work has been amazing!

It looks like the dream will be reality very soon.


A great idea ! There will be some technical problems that need to be solved like: treasuring, chest-keeping system etc. but these are not unsolvable I think.

It's a great idea but nem has no asset exchange or voting system. Not all nemsters will want To use nxt which has been clearly proven by nemstakes. It would be a logistical nightmare to do the voting "on paper".

Also by the very nature of investing in companies, it will have a return on investment. Why not go with the profit thing and then set a x% of the profit per month towards a "nem ecosystem grant" that does not require funds to be payed back.

This grant would be used to fund things that won't bring financial gain but would benefit nem.. An example would be paying a mathematics expert to do a write up on the algorithm(s) like the one mthcl did for nxt.
#83

I think the tokens would essentially mean we give the nem to the stakeholders.
The tokens could easily be abused. A friend of a token holder claims he got a super project and the token holder says he believes in it and invests his token in this "project". The receiver of the nems simply cashes them out and gives the (ex) token holder his part.
Or did I not understand the way it should work?

#84

I think the tokens would essentially mean we give the nem to the stakeholders.
The tokens could easily be abused. A friend of a token holder claims he got a super project and the token holder says he believes in it and invests his token in this "project". The receiver of the nems simply cashes them out and gives the (ex) token holder his part.
Or did I not understand the way it should work?



That is a possibility for sure.  From my experience most people won't do that, but there certainly will be some incidents.  Same said people might also just be dumping their whole stake too, so in the grand scheme of things, I am not sure if the dumping would hurt that much.  On the other hand the development would certainly help. 

It is one of those leaps of faith type of thing. 

As far as I know every suggestion except the burn them all suggestion has a potential for money to be abused in someway or another.
#85

It might be the simplest if we use like 30% of the unclaimed put it into a fund and put a community voted committee in charge.

Make it a 5 person committee where 3 come from the community and 2 from the core team.

#86

It might be the simplest if we use like 30% of the unclaimed put it into a fund and put a community voted committee in charge.

Make it a 5 person committee where 3 come from the community and 2 from the core team.


I second this.

But... the remaining 70%?
#87


It might be the simplest if we use like 30% of the unclaimed put it into a fund and put a community voted committee in charge.

Make it a 5 person committee where 3 come from the community and 2 from the core team.


I second this.

But... the remaining 70%?


Yes, I would keep it simple and not make things so complicated. The simpler it is, the better. What we can do is put this to vote.

Have them broken down into

Investment - put to vote (from 80%)
Marketing - put to vote (from 80%)

Redistribution - limit 10%
Retention for 1 month 10%. On expiry, put them back to Investment and Marketing in their respective amounts.


We get each nemesis holder to send a nem coin each for every NS they hold to any one of two accounts (i.e., to a designated account for marketing or to a designated account for investment) to make a vote on how much of the portion of 80% is to put in Investment or marketing. Count the votes in each category and apportion accordingly.

That way everything is made simple and we can move on. Let's not make things too complicated and be subjected to abuse.
#88

I was talking to KkotNEM.  She has a business selling things on ebay.  She says on ebay a customer has 90 days after receiving a product to try to get a refund.  Also, many stores in the US offer refunds in the first 90 days.  I think it is some kind of legal thing where consumers have 90 days of protection. 

I am not sure how that fits into the whole legal aspect of unclaimed stakes, but it might be part of it. 

#89

Imho best way to deal with unclaimed stakes is to freeze them for 3 month's after launch.
I think 3 months are enough time for every owner of unclaimed stakes to hear about Nem.
When 3 month period is over, let's have one week for claiming that unclaimed stakes.
(they cant get it before, they can't get it after – they have one week).

Then we can have some voting option; every account that have 1million or more NEM have a right to vote;

if we will have 5 voting options, make 5 NEM address and everybody can vote (send 100NEM) for option they
think is best for NEM

((Sorry for my bad english))

#90



I know it is just a testnet, but still when I see a screen like this with soooo many harvests and no fees, it makes me wonder why I am even doing it. 
(I know why… just saying)

I think it would be really nice if there were some block rewards as mentioned back a few pages.  Doesn't have to be much, but sure would be nice. 

One hero Nxter said today that there are only 260 NXT nodes.  That isn't very much at all.  I would love to see NEM double that right from the start. 

#91



I know it is just a testnet, but still when I see a screen like this with soooo many harvests and no fees, it makes me wonder why I am even doing it. 
(I know why..... just saying)

I think it would be really nice if there were some block rewards as mentioned back a few pages.  Doesn't have to be much, but sure would be nice. 

One hero Nxter said today that there are only 260 NXT nodes.  That isn't very much at all.  I would love to see NEM double that right from the start.


Yes, I see this also. Seems here is no action at all. Everybody waiting for beta, I think.
#92

Here are two more screen shots for you. 

This is when I use to keep an NFD node going.  I had the computer on all the time anyway so I thought why not.  I didn't really make much, but I usually got a reward.  It was apparently almost always from a bot that would send a transaction of like 0.00000001 NFD and then have a good transaction fee from 10-50 NFD.  Once I forged a block with a real transaction.  A few times I had empty blocks. 



And this one shows what NFD is doing today.  No fees, no transactions, it is just lifeless.  Nobody has a good reason to support the network anymore. 


Just today I saw that NFD only has 28 forgers in the last week.  That is just sad.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=603932.2400

With some kind of block rewards, even if they are small, I would hope we could get more harvesters supporting the network. 

#93

[img width=800 height=450]http://s25.postimg.org/5rhuh8nnz/Screenshot_2014_10_15_04_51_39.png[/img]

I know it is just a testnet, but still when I see a screen like this with soooo many harvests and no fees, it makes me wonder why I am even doing it. 
(I know why..... just saying)

I think it would be really nice if there were some block rewards as mentioned back a few pages.  Doesn't have to be much, but sure would be nice. 

One hero Nxter said today that there are only 260 NXT nodes.  That isn't very much at all.  I would love to see NEM double that right from the start.

+1
lets use unclaimed stakes as block revard!
#94

If we use 1 unclaimed NEMstake for rewarding every block with additional 2 NEMs, it will last for a year.

#95




I know it is just a testnet, but still when I see a screen like this with soooo many harvests and no fees, it makes me wonder why I am even doing it. 
(I know why..... just saying)

I think it would be really nice if there were some block rewards as mentioned back a few pages.  Doesn't have to be much, but sure would be nice. 

One hero Nxter said today that there are only 260 NXT nodes.  That isn't very much at all.  I would love to see NEM double that right from the start.


Yes, I see this also. Seems here is no action at all. Everybody waiting for beta, I think.


1 or 2 transactions in a day ...  I'd still suggest the stress testing. It's little bit surprising that no dev (not necessarily from NEM dev team) has started the stress testing. I'd not make the actual users to be beta testers...


https://forum.ournem.com/index.php?topic=2382.msg5171#msg5171

https://forum.ournem.com/index.php?topic=2232.msg4666#msg4666
There in BTT was written about "building whales" and "stress testing"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.msg8107289#msg8107289
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654845.msg8107506#msg8107506

Has there been some whales or transactions in loops or smtg, or any plans for such testing?  Manually that could be done, if we choose someone, to whom will be sent big amounts of NEMs. Or making manually several TXs during some hour.


I hope that KingCole (or some other volunteer) would have time to accomplish something  :-\
#96



Has there been some whales or transactions in loops or smtg, or any plans for such testing?  Manually that could be done, if we choose someone, to whom will be sent big amounts of NEMs. Or making manually several TXs during some hour.

I hope that KingCole (or some other volunteer) would have time to accomplish something  :-\


I think stress testing is a great idea.  Get some bots going crazy on the network. 
#97

I posted this on the main thread at BTT.  Reposting here. 

The downside of giving money to harvesters is that it just looks like we are giving more NEM to the original stake holders as they will be the most likely to harvest and that this really doesn't actually help the NEM ecosystem, but that isn't exactly how I see it. 

We are giving NEM not to just stakeholders, but to stakeholders that support the network. Generally speaking in life when people give support to a cause the expectation is that they get something out of it.  What we don't want is people supporting the network and getting nothing for it.  Many other coins are having lots of problems supporting their network because not enough people are running nodes.  Bitcoin of course doesn't have this problem because miners are paid well.  But in PoS like systems, no new coins are created and many people aren't motivated to protect the network because time after time the block reward is 0.  We would like to think that all NEMsters will run a node just because it is the right thing to do, but if time after time they get no block reward, many will turn off their nodes. Ultimately people act in visible and measurable self-interest.  Lack of nodes has been the rule with the other PoS like coins and it needs to be avoided in NEM. We need to be the exception. 

My suggestion was to take a very small amount of the unclaimed stakes, like less than 1%, and set it aside for small block rewards.  This would help bootstrap the system.  The rewards themselves probably wouldn't even pay for the electricity that it costs to keep the computer on, so we aren't making the rich richer, but seeing those extra NEM tokens coming in brings an emotional satisfaction that will keep the nodes on.  People will support the network if even small amounts are rewarded because they feel like they are getting something in return.  The small amount of NEMs are visible and measurable.  But if the block reward says 0, then people get emotionally turned off and turn off the nodes as a result.  Few people do things that don't directly benefit themselves. 

In the end, I believe NEM will be awesome and that people will be running nodes and will need no artificially created incentives because there will be real fees going towards the harvesters.  But that is only after we have an economy, but to have an economy, we need a strong network.  A small block reward will help bootstrap the network and therefore bootstrap the economy. 

In the end, what we really need is for NEM to be so awesome people are using it a lot.  But a high volume of transactions won't happen week one because we won't have many third party partners.  Until then, I see a good reason to fake it until we make it.  To me, one of the beautiful things about NEM is that we get to learn from the mistakes of other coins that came before us.  Pretty much all PoS like coins are having problems getting nodes.  We at NEM have the best distribution of any coin, but I am not sure if that alone is enough to beat the lack of node problem.  Something needs to be done.  I do think with our wide distribution and a very small block reward, we could have more nodes than all the other major PoS like coins combined. 

I think being bigger than the rest combined would be a great selling point of NEM.  We have a real chance here to say we have the strongest network and the most confirmed nodes.  I think that being able to say something like that will help to attract investors that will make NEM more awesome, which will then really strengthen the network.

#98

I agree… A small amount put towards this would be a good use for some of the unclaimed… Wouldn't take much so I would say go for it.

#99

Nicely put argument Jabo.

#100

about the stress testing… on the week end of 25th - 26th il have my laptop back so i could have a shot at configuring my bot to just send shed loads of transactions… not 100% i can do it but i can give it a go. im not sure how many tx i could send a min, that would only be limited by the response time of the ncc. would there be any need to vary the amount being sent? or vary the amount paid in tx fees?