NEM redemption process - request for comment

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#21


Would it be possible to buildin a way that we know we're using the right website to fill in the token in the registration phase?

As I understand it now this will happen:
1. we get a pm with a string on BTT
2. there's an announcement which website to go to fillin the string.
3. we go there and fillin the string, hit enter

If the announcment was a fake one, someone has a lot of tokens all of a sudden.

Maybe it could be something like this:
1. we get 3 unique strings send in the PM on BTT
2. Then there's the announcement of where to go
3. fillin 1st string, hit the ok button
4. website shows 2nd string
5. we know it's the right site and fillin the 3rd part and hit enter.


I'd rather make it simpler: send each user a personalized URL including his unique string.

All he has to do is click on the link and insert his NEM address


I'd make it even simpler - don't trust links that don't come from the NEM team  ;D
The link will most likely be published and not sent via PM so if you get one via pm it's prob fake.
The redemption portal will use https.
#22

I would really like to participate in that short guide amytheplanarshift began but I'm currently moving so I have no time.
We should try to find some people though who can translate the guide when it is finished. A lot of people speak english, but are no native speakers. There will be less missunderstandings if there are good translations. It shouldnt be that much work, too, becuase it is simple and short… :wink:

#23

I would really like to participate in that short guide amytheplanarshift began but I'm currently moving so I have no time.
We should try to find some people though who can translate the guide when it is finished. A lot of people speak english, but are no native speakers. There will be less missunderstandings if there are good translations. It shouldnt be that much work, too, becuase it is simple and short... ;)


I am definitely trying to keep the guide(s) as short and simple as possible for this reason. We've been getting some good suggestions about how to make them even more clear, but I am a little wary about adding too much more to these info guides because I want them to be the most simple reference people can quickly glance at and understand what they need to do.

I want to try and keep the steps listed in the guide limited to only steps related to the NEM redemption process. I know some people are definitely going to have problems figuring out how exactly to transfer an asset somewhere, but then that starts creeping into "How to Use NXT" and I'm not sure it is our responsibility to educate people how to use the NXT client or the NXT asset exchange, mostly because that information is all readily available elsewhere and would be a waste of time to re-document everything just for NEM stakeholders.

If you all agree, I'll consider the guide for NXT AE stakeholders that I've made and posted here to be at least somewhat close to the final design/layout and content (of course, I will fill in the necessary details like the NXT address and such when that information is disclosed) and as soon as I get some free time (probably not until the weekend) I will start working on a guide for BTT stakeholders.
#24


I would really like to participate in that short guide amytheplanarshift began but I'm currently moving so I have no time.
We should try to find some people though who can translate the guide when it is finished. A lot of people speak english, but are no native speakers. There will be less missunderstandings if there are good translations. It shouldnt be that much work, too, becuase it is simple and short... ;)


I am definitely trying to keep the guide(s) as short and simple as possible for this reason. We've been getting some good suggestions about how to make them even more clear, but I am a little wary about adding too much more to these info guides because I want them to be the most simple reference people can quickly glance at and understand what they need to do.

I want to try and keep the steps listed in the guide limited to only steps related to the NEM redemption process. I know some people are definitely going to have problems figuring out how exactly to transfer an asset somewhere, but then that starts creeping into "How to Use NXT" and I'm not sure it is our responsibility to educate people how to use the NXT client or the NXT asset exchange, mostly because that information is all readily available elsewhere and would be a waste of time to re-document everything just for NEM stakeholders.

If you all agree, I'll consider the guide for NXT AE stakeholders that I've made and posted here to be at least somewhat close to the final design/layout and content (of course, I will fill in the necessary details like the NXT address and such when that information is disclosed) and as soon as I get some free time (probably not until the weekend) I will start working on a guide for BTT stakeholders.


I totally agree with you.

I would assume that people who specifically requested to store their token on the NXT AE know how the NXT client works. Why would they request it otherwise ?
If people don't know how the NXT client works then it's imho their responsibility to find out since we didn't make anyone store their token on the AE. 
#25


I would really like to participate in that short guide amytheplanarshift began but I'm currently moving so I have no time.
We should try to find some people though who can translate the guide when it is finished. A lot of people speak english, but are no native speakers. There will be less missunderstandings if there are good translations. It shouldnt be that much work, too, becuase it is simple and short... ;)


I am definitely trying to keep the guide(s) as short and simple as possible for this reason. We've been getting some good suggestions about how to make them even more clear, but I am a little wary about adding too much more to these info guides because I want them to be the most simple reference people can quickly glance at and understand what they need to do.

I want to try and keep the steps listed in the guide limited to only steps related to the NEM redemption process. I know some people are definitely going to have problems figuring out how exactly to transfer an asset somewhere, but then that starts creeping into "How to Use NXT" and I'm not sure it is our responsibility to educate people how to use the NXT client or the NXT asset exchange, mostly because that information is all readily available elsewhere and would be a waste of time to re-document everything just for NEM stakeholders.

If you all agree, I'll consider the guide for NXT AE stakeholders that I've made and posted here to be at least somewhat close to the final design/layout and content (of course, I will fill in the necessary details like the NXT address and such when that information is disclosed) and as soon as I get some free time (probably not until the weekend) I will start working on a guide for BTT stakeholders.


Yeah, although the criticisms i make are perhaps overly cautious, i do agree that by having a wall of do's and don'ts is going to be counter-productive. It'll be harder to read and make the process appear more convoluded then it is; therefore people making more mistakes then they normally would do trying to be compliant/take it all in.

Sadly i think you can only do so much, in the end it's down to the stake/asset holders to ensure they take all precautions necessary -- and take personal responsibility should things mess up.

Nonetheless, if i get any other idea's i'll share them here -- it's your choice whether or not to advice/incorporate it into any official guides.




Isn't the redemption window rather short?
Due to business, illness, or whatever, some people might miss it.


How long do you think it should be?


I personally think 2-3 weeks would be plenty.

My take on it is; if they "participated" in NEM they'll make it a priority to claim and a priority to participate in the movement, and in a circumstance where they are ill, just get someone to help them on their behalf.
#26

At least 60 days. What is the big hurry. There are situations where someone's situation has changed for whatever reason. And may not be able to respond quickly. military personnel, in the hospital or other reasons. It was initially proposed that there would be no time limit for stake holders.


That would seriously delay launch. I also don't recall there having ever been such a proposal.

#27

At least 60 days. What is the big hurry. There are situations where someone's situation has changed for whatever reason. And may not be able to respond quickly. military personnel, in the hospital or other reasons. It was initially proposed that there would be no time limit for stake holders.


No time limit is definitely out of the question. Don't remember that clause anyway. Can you show us that? 60 days is also out of the question. In fact it should be as short as possible, like 1 week. Reason, the longer we leave this open, the more susceptible we are to scammers preying on loopholes, if any. None of us is going to have the luxury of time and be administrators for this long period of time. We may end up in military assignments or hospital ourselves!

In any case, due notices have been given time and again that we will be dishing out "soon" and these notices have been around for the last two months. So, there should be no reason for anyone to miss out.
#28

I like 60 days, why is that out of the question? Not everyone may have the Internet access the way they had many months ago. As I said military and other reasons.


I think it should be held indefinitely. There are many reasons as stated above, maybe someone has something come up. How is holding someones share going to damage the network/economy?
#29

I like 60 days, why is that out of the question? Not everyone may have the Internet access the way they had many months ago. As I said military and other reasons.


Seems like a ridiculous argument to me. If internet access was this much of a concern, they'd not have participated in the first place.

Whether or not they're unable to get online as much as they could have - this is their responsibility, not the NEM devs. Trust me, they'll find a way if they're that invested into NEM.

a few weeks seems more then justified and fair to me, especially as this was disclosed right from the beginning. I must admit that people wanting to change the rules as we go along is somewhat frustrating and counter-productive to me.
#30

I personally will be in a similar situation in a few days


So therefore the rules need to be amended to suit your schedule? Makes sense now why your so adamant.

I've no doubt you'll find a means to get online when the time comes.
#31


I like 60 days, why is that out of the question? Not everyone may have the Internet access the way they had many months ago. As I said military and other reasons.


I think it should be held indefinitely. There are many reasons as stated above, maybe someone has something come up. How is holding someones share going to damage the network/economy?


I think the reasons Rockethead specified are more than enough.





I personally will be in a similar situation in a few days


So therefore the rules need to be amended to suit your schedule? Makes sense now why your so adamant.

I've no doubt you'll find a means to get online when the time comes.


So it does not seem ridiculous to you. You just do not give a fsck about others.


On the contrary, i'd argue it is you who does not care for others. You argue to change something that was written in black and white from the start. Many people contributed based on those terms. Now, because you're going away, you argue that 2 weeks isn't long enough.

I'm sorry, but no, it is you who appears not to care.

Edit-- I'm not even going to dignify that post of yours below with a fresh one, sorry :)
#32

Guys, please be civil. Name-calling and general negativity towards each other is something I'm very much trying to prevent here.

One thing we need to have for each other in this community is respect. Sometimes, there are actually circumstances that arise in one's life that are beyond your control. Instead of resorting to name-calling and statements of moral superiority, let's try to discuss this matter with a bit of civility.

Obviously, there is at least one person in our community (jadedjack) who has expressed that they may have difficulty meeting the redemption deadline. As a stakeholder, he is entitled to his opinion just as much as anyone else, so rather than claim he is inconsiderate, let us try to work together to find a way to solve his problem.

There are definitely reasons why there need to be a limited window of time for redemption. rockethead and others have pointed those out. The longer the window remains open, the more susceptible we all will be as stakeholders to hacking and phishing attempts because the knowledge that their are unclaimed stakes out there will be known. Can you imagine how much we will be targeted if, once NEM is released, the value skyrockets and suddenly a NEMstake is worth $10,000 or $100,000 or more? This imposes a huge risk not only on us, the stakeholders, but the dev team and BitcoinTalk as well, and we must be considerate of that fact.

Therefore, a limited time window is absolutely necessary. I hope that jadedjack, and others who have proposed an indefinite time window for redemption can understand why this is the case now. With that said, my proposal for jadedjack and anyone else who expects that they may not have Internet access during the redemption period, is to please detail to us your estimated time without Internet access so that perhaps we can make arrangements to try and help you claim your stake. I personally don't want for anyone to miss out on this and lose their stake simply because they have other things in their life going on and can't make the deadline.

If the devs and other core team members agree, I'd even be willing to claim stakes on your behalf (with a few steps for identity verification of course) and send them out to you once you return and are available. Of course, you'd have to trust me, but I'm here to make cryptocurrencies (and particularly this community) a better place, not destroy it. I think there could be ways of arranging this if indeed you are certain you will not be able to access the Internet during the redemption period, so let's discuss that as a possible solution instead of playing the blame game.

What do you think?

#33

If the devs and other core team members agree, I'd even be willing to claim stakes on your behalf (with a few steps for identity verification of course) and send them out to you once you return and are available.


I already pmed with jadejack (before this discussion started) that he should contact me if redemtpion hadn't started yet when he becomes unavailable so we can work something out. What I had in mind when I said "working out" was exactly what you're suggesting amy :). Of course if you could handle these cases I'd be very gratefull for that. It's up to the stakeholders wether they trust you so I don't think the devs have to agree but I'd also like to hear everyones opinion on that.

Here's the reason why we need a limited time window: We need all addresses at NEMESIS. All stakehodlers will get their NEMs directly out of the NEMESIS block. How is that supposed to happen with an indefinate timewindow ?

Would ther be ways to do it ? - Sure.
Should the team have to bend again and go out of their way to support special cases of stakeholders who often contribute nothing (THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT JADEJACK OR ANYONE IN PARTICULAR) or even discredit NEM ? - I say (hell) no.

I don't know about you guys but I want to print the stakeholder list and burn it. Lost accounts, Scams and all that shit. It's enough. Let's get this over with so we can focus on important projects and not make this more complicated.

1 month for redemption should really be enough.
#34

One thing we need to have for each other in this community is respect. Sometimes, there are actually circumstances that arise in one's life that are beyond your control. Instead of resorting to name-calling and statements of moral superiority, let's try to discuss this matter with a bit of civility.

Obviously, there is at least one person in our community (jadedjack) who has expressed that they may have difficulty meeting the redemption deadline. As a stakeholder, he is entitled to his opinion just as much as anyone else, so rather than claim he is inconsiderate, let us try to work together to find a way to solve his problem.


Although i totally agree with your sentiment, my perspective was; it's unfair to expect or otherwise attempt to change rules that were otherwise wholly agreed upon by most, especially on account of one, or a few people - this was just the point i was trying to make.

Again, just as Pat said, why should the devs have to bend over backwards repeatedly for a minority of people when things have already been agreed upon? My biggest concerns with a drawn out stake redemption is primarily that of scams and theft. In a nutshell; Everything Rocket mentioned. This i think could have huge, negative impacts on NEM if it really got bad.

Nonetheless, I can understand some people may struggle with the dates from other commitments; and the fact that help has been offered is certainly a good thing. I just think there needs to be boundries here and making any serious game-changing rules just seems hugely detrimental in my eyes (Not that of course, you were going to, I was simply just saying)


#35



One thing we need to have for each other in this community is respect. Sometimes, there are actually circumstances that arise in one's life that are beyond your control. Instead of resorting to name-calling and statements of moral superiority, let's try to discuss this matter with a bit of civility.

Obviously, there is at least one person in our community (jadedjack) who has expressed that they may have difficulty meeting the redemption deadline. As a stakeholder, he is entitled to his opinion just as much as anyone else, so rather than claim he is inconsiderate, let us try to work together to find a way to solve his problem.

I just think there needs to be boundries here and making any serious game-changing rules just seems hugely detrimental in my eyes (Not that of course, you were going to, I was simply just saying)


The game rules were laid down last May, at least for the nem tokens issued on the nxt exchange, two months would be allowed for redemption. A long opportunity was allowed to allow a "fair"  orderly distribution. It doesn't seem right to slam the door shut on people so quickly. I can see why certain people want others excluded. It will help to concentrate nem into the hands of the few and increase the value of their stake.


What happens to unclaimed stakes is not yet decided but I'm almost 100% sure that they won't just be blindly distributed to the rest of the stakeholders. So one stake doesn't necessarily become more valueable if there are more unclaimed stakes.
#36

i have to say i agree with patmast3r… the sooner this stake holder thing and all the issues that arose from it are behind us and forgotten about the better. 1 month is plenty of time… if someone wants their stake bad enough and they are going away, they can very easily teach a relative or something to do it for them. its not rocket science. else just trust another stake holder to handle things that end…

#37



One thing we need to have for each other in this community is respect. Sometimes, there are actually circumstances that arise in one's life that are beyond your control. Instead of resorting to name-calling and statements of moral superiority, let's try to discuss this matter with a bit of civility.

Obviously, there is at least one person in our community (jadedjack) who has expressed that they may have difficulty meeting the redemption deadline. As a stakeholder, he is entitled to his opinion just as much as anyone else, so rather than claim he is inconsiderate, let us try to work together to find a way to solve his problem.

I just think there needs to be boundries here and making any serious game-changing rules just seems hugely detrimental in my eyes (Not that of course, you were going to, I was simply just saying)


The game rules were laid down last May, at least for the nem tokens issued on the nxt exchange, two months would be allowed for redemption. A long opportunity was allowed to allow a "fair"  orderly distribution. It doesn't seem right to slam the door shut on people so quickly. I can see why certain people want others excluded. It will help to concentrate nem into the hands of the few and increase the value of their stake.


This isn't how i view it at all - my perspective is the more widely distributed, the more valuable it becomes, because the higher the probability people will create further infrastructure and resources surrounding NEM. The only reason more "centralized" currencies may succeed is in many parts market price manipulation, whales and the sorts - something i hope to see NEM avoid.

There will also always be 4 billion in existence, and just because some may not claim their coins doesn't mean it falls into the hands of those already holding coins.

I certainly don't want to see you or anyone else excluded (After all, my posts in this very thread have been to help aid people to claim), but from the start of my replies to you, my point has been it just doesn't seem right rules should be rewritten on account of a few voices, especially now, so close to release.

One thing you are correct on is the initial post by Utopian of which i was unaware of - i apologize for this, sorry. I've always been under the impression that the period was set, from the start, as a 2 week period. I'm curious to know when it was changed but i do suspect it would've been not long after this initial statement, on the grounds of what Rocket specified.
#38

Some decisions may have been made because of the thought processes that were put forth at that time. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, these decisions or procedures should not have been made. The thought processes that went in may not have been that simple after all. A scam like what happened erstwhile ago was definitely not thought of.

As we move forward, there can be issues that cannot be avoided and we have to change some rules along the way. Some things are possible to remain as they are but there are things that have to change because of the way things turn out to be otherwise.

The issue of scam and the need to put everything onto the nemesis block makes it hard to bend the rules unless of course if we decide that the coins are put into a wallet to be held by Pat again, like how the NEMstakes are done and then issue them as they are claimed. I do not think anyone of us should be responsible for any loss though.

We lost 6 NEMStakes to scammers along the way. These NEMStakes will have to be accounted for and they are not free per se.

Now, if the NEM Coins are not distributed for now and if any one of us errs in dishing out the coins to scammers, who is going to be responsible?

One may still go for military services and come back to find that their coins are no more there. One thing's for sure. The devs or anyone responsible for the distribution should not be held responsible for that.

I urge everyone to claim their coins immediately when the floodgate is open. The sooner it is claimed, the better. Once claimed, you will know for sure that it is as safe as it can be in your hands.

#39

I am also of the opinion that 1 month time should be enough for claiming a stake. After all, we will use every communication channel we've got to broadcast the message, so it should be fairly easy for every stakeholder to know about things and act in a timely manner.

#40

The transfer of UNITY to SuperNET was way less obvious and way less organized in my opinion and it seems to have gone fairly well overall. I think we should be okay, hopefully. I'm still going to make those guides though, if I can ever get more than a couple minutes to myself so I can sit down and finish them. ><