"New" Economy Movement - I would have expected more flexibility not less and for its base to be more inclusive not less.
One month is a very small window and I see no benefit from it. Surely the assets of those who have not claimed, could be locked in some way and if never claimed they would become the same as a burn of those.
The only outcome from shutting out initial stakeholders, will be to alienate the very people who were interested in the idea.
If you retain only those who are alert and do jump hoops that you set, then perhaps you will have a smaller base of talent to draw on?..
Also, if you commit to the route proposed you create risk unnecessarily of claimed stakes being few relative to the unclaimed stakes and then of having the unclaimed stakeholders crying something close to pre-mine. Recall the initial effort was to distribute --widely–.
8)
"New" Economy Movement - I would have expected more flexibility not less and for its base to be more inclusive not less.
One month is a very small window and I see no benefit from it. Surely the assets of those who have not claimed, could be locked in some way and if never claimed they would become the same as a burn of those.
The only outcome from shutting out initial stakeholders, will be to alienate the very people who were interested in the idea.
If you retain only those who are alert and do jump hoops that you set, then perhaps you will have a smaller base of talent to draw on?..
Also, if you commit to the route proposed you create risk unnecessarily of claimed stakes being few relative to the unclaimed stakes and then of having the unclaimed stakeholders crying something close to pre-mine. Recall the initial effort was to distribute --widely--.
8)
I don't think any of that addresses any of the issues we have brought up here multiple times as to why an unlimited redemption window is not feasible. Holding the unclaimed stakes in a "locked" state still does not prevent the major issue of putting the accounts/identity of those stakeholders at risk the longer time goes by.
I am really kind of interested as to why so many people want a longer redemption period than one month. If you are active enough to be posting about the issue, then surely you are not afraid of missing the redemption window yourself, so what is the motive? Are you that worried that a significant number of your fellow stakeholders will somehow miss the redemption window? I think we should all have a little more faith in the competence and awareness of our stakeholders, honestly. One month is an eternity in the world of cryptocurrencies and in an age where we are all connected to the Internet nearly 24/7 whether it be via mobile or PC. Only under the most extreme of circumstances would someone potentially miss the redemption window, and I personally think the risk is far too high to everyone involved to keep the redemption window open indefinitely to cater to what most likely will be a handful of cases out of 3000+ stakeholders.
One reason to keep it at two months is because that is what people have been told since May.
https://forum.ournem.com/index.php?topic=2210.0
To change it at the last minute could be a potential big black eye for NEM as stated above.
All of our developers are professionals and admirable people.
It would be a shame if any faux paux sullied their hard work.
If you are talking about the following:
8. NEMstake tokens will expire and has no more conversion power after the completion of V1 blockchain (about 2 months after the official launch). All NEMstake tokens will be destroyed by sending them back to Nxt genesis block.
1) That is talking about NEMstake tokens on the NXT asset exchange, and makes no mention of the conversion process for BTT stakeholders.
2) It was obviously written as a rough estimate ("about 2 months") and was never intended to be any kind of official rule or guideline.
I understand the concern and the anxiety behind the conversion process, I really do. We all want to get our NEM in our wallets so that we can be done with this and feel safe that our stake is accounted for, myself included.
However, with that said, stating a redemption window of 1 month now that we are closer to launch and can finalize an actual timeline is NOT changing the rules or flip-flopping on something that was established earlier without the consent of the community. And, as I and others have stated multiple times here, having stated the timeframe for the redemption window this far in advance, we are giving everyone a significant amount of time to make arrangements to claim their stake.
Again, if you have even the slightest concern that you may not be able to access the Internet during the 1 month redemption period, please contact me here or on BTT via PM and we can arrange something for you. I really think most people are fine with the 1 month window and it is just a vocal minority expressing concern about it. Of course, your opinions are very welcome and we are happy to hear them, but in this case I am afraid the majority of the community is in favor of a 1 month timeframe for redemption.
How would you like it if we let it run 2 months and delay the launch to december because of that ?
How would that look ?
Initially the idea was to let AE people redeem longer - hence the description of NEMStake - and you know what we got for that ? Shit !
People crying about not being in NEMESIS just beacuse they bought on AE.
The truth is we're never going to make everyone happy and this is the easiest process we could think of with the limitations at hand.
The idea was to spread it widely to interested people not to spread it to people that are too lazy to check in once a month. If you're not able to redeem yourself because you don't have access to the internet during that exact month then you had half a year to think about solutions for that problem. If you haven't thought about the problem before you have had plenty of time since we released the information and until the process actually starts.
And don't say we're not flexible. You gotta be freaking kidding me. Everything the community asked for we've delivered even if it meant a lot more work for us.
It's not 2003 or 1998 anymore. Abroad in developing countries I was able to find Wifi almost everywhere. Most hotels everywhere now have wifi.
Granted Grandma may not have internet but there's wifi somewhere in her town or you have smartphone data.
have
"New" Economy Movement - I would have expected more flexibility not less and for its base to be more inclusive not less.
One month is a very small window and I see no benefit from it. Surely the assets of those who have not claimed, could be locked in some way and if never claimed they would become the same as a burn of those.
The only outcome from shutting out initial stakeholders, will be to alienate the very people who were interested in the idea.
If you retain only those who are alert and do jump hoops that you set, then perhaps you will have a smaller base of talent to draw on?..
Also, if you commit to the route proposed you create risk unnecessarily of claimed stakes being few relative to the unclaimed stakes and then of having the unclaimed stakeholders crying something close to pre-mine. Recall the initial effort was to distribute --widely--.
8)
So you want forever so that it is ever "NEW"? In any initiative be it flexible or not, there is an 80/20 rule. There will always be the 20% that will cry foul or unfair. If one caters for that 20%, the 80% will jump in and create more havoc.
I believe you are speaking for the 20%, maybe less in this initiative. We will find ways to make it widely distributed for the unclaimed stakes.
Believe me there are many ways to make it widely distributed. It is in the will of the people who run it. NEM, I believe, has that will.
It is in my personal interest anyway to distribute this far and wide. One man's lost is a hundred men's gain. How's that for flexibility and inclusiveness? ;-)
It's not 2003 or 1998 anymore. Abroad in developing countries I was able to find Wifi almost everywhere. Most hotels everywhere now have wifi.
Granted Grandma may not have internet but there's wifi somewhere in her town or you have smartphone data.
have
In that 30 days, all I need is to spend one day in civilisation and I would have this all addressed and done with. Is it so hard?
I find it so hard to believe that this can ever be such an event, i.e., 30 days of not getting access to the Internet. Since the early 1990s, I have never been absent from the Internet for more than a week at most. No matter how remote I may be. In this day and age, I have never gone off the Internet for more than 3 days.
It is hard to believe that a crypto enthusiast can be absent from the Internet for more than 30 days.
So, why do we even want to bother about discussing this remote possibility of not claiming one's stake. Forgetting to claim is not really the problem of the administrators who are mostly volunteers and they cannot be waiting forever for some dude who doesn't care about claiming it within a month.
... I am really kind of interested as to why so many people want a longer redemption period than one month...
I think if you really analyse, there are more than 670 reads, 4 threads' deep and 3 complainants. The rest are silent. Silent means consent because if it affects someone, they will raise their concerns. So, really, there are not "so many people" unless 3 is a measure of "so many people".
I will just ignore all these complaints. Best case is, we just ask these 3 people to let you or someone hold their few stakes. That is the price they will have to pay for not being able to claim. It is not our fault if they cannot get to claim.
I would only be concerned about the Chinese. And that has to be something we need to consider.
How's that for flexibility and inclusiveness? ;-)
It's all good, so long as 80% is stakeholders at least do jump the hoop within a month. If you are confident that 80% are still engaged and active within a month enough to see the plan and act on it, then go ahead.. perhaps put a countdown clock somewhere obvious to help avoid that people can still visit the forum and miss it. It's just impt to avoid the worst case that we see only 64%- of initial interest capitalised. A long run in perhaps helps make it more than one month.. but is this thread or a similar one stickied for example. The best route will likely be the email newsletter. If you like the 80/20 so much you might consider 80% are still engaged and 80% of those enough to act.. and 80% of those will see it etc.. good luck
How's that for flexibility and inclusiveness? ;-)
It's all good, so long as 80% is stakeholders at least do jump the hoop within a month. If you are confident that 80% are still engaged and active within a month enough to see the plan and act on it, then go ahead.. perhaps put a countdown clock somewhere obvious to help avoid that people can still visit the forum and miss it. It's just impt to avoid the worst case that we see only 64%- of initial interest capitalised. A long run in perhaps helps make it more than one month.. but is this thread or a similar one stickied for example. The best route will likely be the email newsletter. If you like the 80/20 so much you might consider 80% are still engaged and 80% of those enough to act.. and 80% of those will see it etc.. good luck
As I said earlier, my great concern is the Chinese as they have been cut off from BTT. But we hope they will come to this forum to see what's going on.
At 64% claim, I think this is what we will not be surprised because of the possibility of the Chinese missing out. Taking the Chinese into consideration, which may add another few percentage points, a 70% claim can be considered a success, although I would like to see a higher figure.
We will never expect 100% for sure. Giving another 30 days may probably result in a small incremental rise and therefore not impactful enough anyway.
I'd rather we use the unclaimed stakes to get another few thousand users than to wait for a few tens of users for another 30 days and delay the launch.
Cant these 3 guys just use a phone with internet or an i-pad to claim?
Will the redemption final steps, like starting and final date & nxt address for AE owners be published on https://medium.com/@xtester/ ?
Will the redemption final steps, like starting and final date & nxt address for AE owners be published on https://medium.com/@xtester/ ?
They'll be published on all channels. twitter.com/nemcoin, forum.nemcoin.com, btt and prob newsletter.
I'm afraid this is going to be a nightmare with people complaining for months…
My proposal: generate private keys for all unclaimed stakes and let trusted volunteers (like Amy) handle them.
Probably we will need more volunteers than just Amy; in this case I can do my part.
Than we generate a public list of who has each user private key:
user xxx -> amytheplanarshift
user yyy -> rigel
user zzz -> GreyFox
…
This way we can split the job between a bigger group of people.
If after x months and many PMs the stake is still unclaimed, community can decide what to do with them.
If we have multisig before distribution we do something better: avoid a single volunteer can steal NEMs he/she is handling.
I'm afraid this is going to be a nightmare with people complaining for months...
My proposal: generate private keys for all unclaimed stakes and let trusted volunteers (like Amy) handle them.
Probably we will need more volunteers than just Amy; in this case I can do my part.
Than we generate a public list of who has each user private key:
user xxx -> amytheplanarshift
user yyy -> rigel
user zzz -> GreyFox
...
This way we can split the job between a bigger group of people.
If after x months and many PMs the stake is still unclaimed, community can decide what to do with them.
If we have multisig before distribution we do something better: avoid a single volunteer can steal NEMs he/she is handling.
I appreciate your activity but your proposal imho doesn't make much sense.
All the unlcaimed NEMs will prob be kept in some account protected with multi-sig until it is decided what should be done with them.
In case there are really a fuckload of unclaimed > 1000 we can of course still adapt the procedure. Thats an advantage of doing the registration and providing an address in 2 stages.
Your proposal would make sense if people for some reason can't redeem their stake within the timeframe and they'd like to "out-source" that task to another stakeholder. Such an innitiative would be awesome so if you guys are willing to do this plz open a thread here and announce it on btt.
I'm afraid this is going to be a nightmare with people complaining for months...
My proposal: generate private keys for all unclaimed stakes and let trusted volunteers (like Amy) handle them.
Probably we will need more volunteers than just Amy; in this case I can do my part.
Than we generate a public list of who has each user private key:
user xxx -> amytheplanarshift
user yyy -> rigel
user zzz -> GreyFox
...
This way we can split the job between a bigger group of people.
If after x months and many PMs the stake is still unclaimed, community can decide what to do with them.
If we have multisig before distribution we do something better: avoid a single volunteer can steal NEMs he/she is handling.
I appreciate your activity but your proposal imho doesn't make much sense.
All the unlcaimed NEMs will prob be kept in some account protected with multi-sig until it is decided what should be done with them.
In case there are really a f**kload of unclaimed > 1000 we can of course still adapt the procedure. Thats an advantage of doing the registration and providing an address in 2 stages.
Your proposal would make sense if people for some reason can't redeem their stake within the timeframe and they'd like to "out-source" that task to another stakeholder. Such an innitiative would be awesome so if you guys are willing to do this plz open a thread here and announce it on btt.
Yes. Just do multisig, like 3 of 6 will do. Doesn't even need a majority.
That's why multisig is going to be a very good tool. ;-)
I am of course willing to help out with this if anyone does need someone to claim their stake for them and hold it until they can actually have Internet access to claim their coins. Hopefully we can figure out a more elegant solution OR hopefully we don't run into many of these cases at all for it to be an issue, although I'm sure we will at least a bit.
I am of course willing to help out with this if anyone does need someone to claim their stake for them and hold it until they can actually have Internet access to claim their coins. Hopefully we can figure out a more elegant solution OR hopefully we don't run into many of these cases at all for it to be an issue, although I'm sure we will at least a bit.
Offering to help is very kind of you. But if your computer is hacked and you lose all the coins, it would be disastrous for you and people will doubt your sincerity even if you genuinely lost them to hackers.
I would advise against anyone holding these coins for people.
People are never forgiving if something like that happens.
That's why I strongly recommend multisig to be implemented at launch. Too many coins are at stake, including the devs coins in safekeeping. Go on to that thread and vote for multisig!
I am of course willing to help out with this if anyone does need someone to claim their stake for them and hold it until they can actually have Internet access to claim their coins. Hopefully we can figure out a more elegant solution OR hopefully we don't run into many of these cases at all for it to be an issue, although I'm sure we will at least a bit.
Offering to help is very kind of you. But if your computer is hacked and you lose all the coins, it would be disastrous for you and people will doubt your sincerity even if you genuinely lost them to hackers.
I would advise against anyone holding these coins for people.
People are never forgiving if something like that happens.
That's why I strongly recommend multisig to be implemented at launch. Too many coins are at stake, including the devs coins in safekeeping. Go on to that thread and vote for multisig!
I second this!
Make multisig and keep coins for a long time to avoid people complaining.
Is there a countdown somewhere to redeem your stake? That would be nice.