Pat and gimre are right. We will have to discuss this internally and come to a solution as soon as possible.
oh nooo... what are you guys doing? can you please stand to your word just 1 time?
first think, then decide and then live with it..
oh nooo... what are you guys doing? can you please stand to your word just 1 time?
first think, then decide and then live with it..
oh nooo... what are you guys doing? can you please stand to your word just 1 time?
first think, then decide and then live with it..
you see, we're more decentralized than nxt ;-)
joking aside, this wasn't properly discussed
Yes it's insane, different rules for different groups.
AE group can have as many stakes as they like.
BTT group can't.
Why? The only answer I read so far was because that was the rule. Is one group more likely to dump their stake then the other? Have proof?
Now BTT group has longer to redeem their stake then the AE group. Again why? A stake is a stake.
Isn't it better to have XEM in circulation then have it sitting in some account waiting for people to decide what to do with it? The crypto world likes to see volume, it gets people talking about it, what do you think the view of NEM will be when people see 60% of it being held?
The person handling the NXT AE NEMstake account is leaving post-launch, so someone else has to take over that responsibility and it is a lot of money and potential for fraud to keep it open. If we want to handle NEMstake redemption the same as BTT stakes, then we should reduce the extended redemption period from 2 months to 1 month or less. The longer we keep dealing with this, the more the potential for fraud. That is why I pushed to get the NEMstake trading shut down and it was decided to do that on an internal trello board.
Allowing NXT AE redemption after launch equals making fun of a lot of people. Because it was officially announced that this is not possible and that after the deadline the NEMstake assets get worthless. People reacted on that… it had an impact… No way, we can change the course again now. 100 % clear on that.
Unfortunately, it is my opinion that we CANNOT allow an extended period for AE redemption now. Before anyone makes any rash decisions, please take a moment to consider these points.
A deadline for AE redemption was announced clearly on all official NEM communication channels and it was clearly stated that NEMstake assets would become WORTHLESS after the redemption deadline. Because of this, there was some post-deadline trading by people who forgot to redeem or were not paying attention and this caused the price of NEMstake to trade at lower-than-normal levels. Opening redemption back up again at this point would be unfair to those who panic sold after thinking their stake was worthless (as it was clearly stated it would be) and to the people who bought NEMstake at normal prices pre-deadline (as someone now has NEMstake in the 20-30k range which NEMstake had not been trading in for months prior to the deadline).
Second, for once I feel like we have to STICK to a decision made and not keep going back on things because one or two people missed out. Yes, it sucks that people missed the redemption. I feel for them, I really do. I'd be so angry and sad if I made the same mistake. The difference is that I cared enough about NEM and my investment to keep track of the deadlines and redeem as instructed.
I understand we are all about equal opportunity, but extending the deadline for AE NEMstake now would be UNFAIR to more people than it would be to accommodate the few people who missed the redemption deadline. If Poloniex does not want to list XEM because of this, then that is their (imo, poor) business decision to do so. We can't give special treatment to certain people just because they run an exchange if we are truly about equal opportunity. What's done is done. There is no turning back now.
Honestly, once launch happens and a few months pass nobody is even going to remember any of this except for in various nostalgia threads years from now if NEM still manages to stick around (which I hope it will). The imperative thing here is that we do not make any (more) bad decisions to further ruin the reputation of NEM before we even launch. Given the nature of this redemption process, no matter what decision we make there will be negative consequences. But to me, the negative consequences of extending the deadline far outweigh those of sticking to our guns.
Further discussion and rebuttals are welcome, as always. 
As a person that has lived on 3 continents, each with a very difficult culture (America, Africa, Asia) I get how things like this are so culturally defined. In some places deadlines are very strict, in other places they are mere suggestions.
The deal is, we are a community of people from around the world, so I can understand why some individuals are so lax and some are so strict about this issue. And the way forward will always make some people angry no matter the path.
In this particular situation I can sympathize with Polo. They have been working with NEM for a long time. They are even so invested in NEM that they claim to have spent $17,000. That is pretty serious. I'd hate to lose such a motivated serious partner. Has any other NEMster invested $17,000? (just as a little side note and something that people might want to consider, if polo spent that much money, I'm going to just say in my personal opinion it was because certain members working at polo were going to pump it and then maybe later dump. Whether this is a good or bad thing can be debated, but I am guessing that is the reason an exchange would so heavily invest in a platform.)
If we take a step back, we can ask ourselves what is the point of a deadline? Is it to punish people? Or is it to make sure that business goes well and organized? To me, the answer is not to punish people, we want as many people in NEM as possible, but the deadline is to make sure that from an admin point of view that NEM is being managed well. But if we are losing a partner like Polo, then it is pretty clear that business isn't going well and it the deadline is counter productive and working against its original aim. To that end, I am guessing that we should at least let Polo into the Nemesis block.
As much as rules and ideals are great, and I am the first to admit that I am an idealist, it should also be remembered that politics is the art of the possible. At the end of the day, if we want to create a new economy, it isn't right to just take money away from others. I think it makes sense to have a 1-3 day grace period from launch, when people can redeem their NEMstake assets. There is nothing wrong with helping others out, especially when celebrating launch.
As much as rules and ideals are great, and I am the first to admit that I am an idealist, it should also be remembered that politics is the art of the possible. At the end of the day, if we want to create a new economy, it isn't right to just take money away from others. I think it makes sense to have a 1-3 day grace period from launch, when people can redeem their NEMstake assets. There is nothing wrong with helping others out, especially when celebrating launch.
I totally agree, but yet we are talking about messing with market forces here and that's the reason it just doesn't work and that's the reason for a hard deadline. If the plan was to have a grace period then we absolutely had to say that before making such bold statements like NEMSTAKE WILL BE WORTHLESS AFTER SUCH AND SUCH DATE. This statement manipulated the market in a way that would likely negatively affect more people than the few who forgot to redeem. If something like 100 people forgot, then maybe, but if we are only talking about a handful of people who are speaking up about this then the negative consequences from the market manipulation far outweigh the benefits of making an exception for a very small minority.
Again, the reason a deadline had to be set for AE NEMstake is precisely because it is an asset traded on the free market. Without a hard deadline, all NEMstake trading becomes an unfair, manipulated market and that's not something I want to see NEM accused of facilitating.
As much as rules and ideals are great, and I am the first to admit that I am an idealist, it should also be remembered that politics is the art of the possible. At the end of the day, if we want to create a new economy, it isn't right to just take money away from others. I think it makes sense to have a 1-3 day grace period from launch, when people can redeem their NEMstake assets. There is nothing wrong with helping others out, especially when celebrating launch.
+1 but with the modification that it does not include the post deadline traded stakes. It's not really fair to the 1500+ stakeholders if people were able to buy severely discounted stakes after the deadline ended. This an inside job without my proposed modification.
oh nooo... what are you guys doing? can you please stand to your word just 1 time?
first think, then decide and then live with it..
you see, we're more decentralized than nxt ;-)
joking aside, this wasn't properly discussed
@Gimre, I can understand your point. I feel pretty embarrassed that some how as a community NEM was able to make a deadline that everyone hadn't agreed on, and that somehow one of our most valued partners wasn't informed of and then somehow missed. To me this is just as bad or worse then the overly decentralized mess that exists at NXT that makes for complete lack of services in some areas and then 3 or 4 teams working on the same thing in different areas. If we are going to be successful, we are better off to not repeat their mistakes.
Right now we have a BTT thread, NEM forum, IRC, Trello, and Telegram. As far as the community is concerned, by far most of the action is happening on Telegram away from the main devs view. That makes me sad because I see two hearts to NEM. I see one heart of NEM is the core devs, who have spent soooooo much time making this thing work that it is practically like you are married to NEM. At the same time we have a good 30-50 people on Telegram making over 1000 messages a day, and so each of those people are basically like fully dating NEM. hahahaha (Man, NEM gets a lot of action in this metaphor! hehehe) Then there are the in between platforms of BTT, NEM forum, IRC, and Trello where things are sometimes kind of discussed here and there and sometimes not.
I have noticed quite a few other crypto currencies have moved to a platform called Slack and have been very successful with it. At first I thought that NEM didn't need something like that, but as time goes on and these other communities keep on growing, I am starting to think it is a superior platform. To that end, I think at launch it would be in our benefit to close down Trello, Telegram, and IRC because all three of those are easily replicated with just one Slack. And lots of people would be happy to know that it doesn't need a phone number to sign up and works across almost all platforms.
I heard other platforms were using slack
As much as rules and ideals are great, and I am the first to admit that I am an idealist, it should also be remembered that politics is the art of the possible. At the end of the day, if we want to create a new economy, it isn't right to just take money away from others. I think it makes sense to have a 1-3 day grace period from launch, when people can redeem their NEMstake assets. There is nothing wrong with helping others out, especially when celebrating launch.
+1 but with the modification that it does not include the post deadline traded stakes. It's not really fair to the 1500+ stakeholders if people were able to buy severely discounted stakes after the deadline ended. This an inside job without my proposed modification.
+2 any assets traded post deadline were the force of market manipulation and should not be recognized. If Polo really did buy 30 stakes or however many it was, it should have been before the deadline, not after.
I am okay for 3 days of redemption at launch for last minute NXT AE holders to get in.
oh nooo... what are you guys doing? can you please stand to your word just 1 time?
first think, then decide and then live with it..
you see, we're more decentralized than nxt ;-)
joking aside, this wasn't properly discussed
@Gimre, I can understand your point. I feel pretty embarrassed that some how as a community NEM was able to make a deadline that everyone hadn't agreed on, and that somehow one of our most valued partners wasn't informed of and then somehow missed. To me this is just as bad or worse then the overly decentralized mess that exists at NXT that makes for complete lack of services in some areas and then 3 or 4 teams working on the same thing in different areas. If we are going to be successful, we are better off to not repeat their mistakes.
Right now we have a BTT thread, NEM forum, IRC, Trello, and Telegram. As far as the community is concerned, by far most of the action is happening on Telegram away from the main devs view. That makes me sad because I see two hearts to NEM. I see one heart of NEM is the core devs, who have spent soooooo much time making this thing work that it is practically like you are married to NEM. At the same time we have a good 30-50 people on Telegram making over 1000 messages a day, and so each of those people are basically like fully dating NEM. hahahaha (Man, NEM gets a lot of action in this metaphor! hehehe) Then there are the in between platforms of BTT, NEM forum, IRC, and Trello where things are sometimes kind of discussed here and there and sometimes not.
I have noticed quite a few other crypto currencies have moved to a platform called Slack and have been very successful with it. At first I thought that NEM didn't need something like that, but as time goes on and these other communities keep on growing, I am starting to think it is a superior platform. To that end, I think at launch it would be in our benefit to close down Trello, Telegram, and IRC because all three of those are easily replicated with just one Slack. And lots of people would be happy to know that it doesn't need a phone number to sign up and works across almost all platforms.
I heard other platforms were using slack
The core team voted on and ratified the deadline before it was announced.
It is also sad that one of our core partners didn't see the message we sent to their NXT account or our dozens of tweets or facebook and forum posts :(
TO Makoto and others who are suggesting to allow AE redemption again -> It's going to make a lot of people angry and hopeless. After the deadline, the leftover stakes were traded at chump change to what other people might have paid for.
If the redemption is allowed then it'll do more damage to NEM than good(if any).
I have been waiting for the past 10 months really patiently for the launch of NEM. I did not even shout once to launch NEM unprepared. The deadline was a to prepare for the creation of the genesis block and the decision should not be reversed. Had Poloniex come after launch, would they have been satisfied?
Kindly think before taking any quick decisions.
TO Makoto and others who are suggesting to allow AE redemption again -> It's going to make a lot of people angry and hopeless. After the deadline, the leftover stakes were traded at chump change to what other people might have paid for.
If the redemption is allowed then it'll do more damage to NEM than good(if any).
I have been waiting for the past 10 months really patiently for the launch of NEM. I did not even shout once to launch NEM unprepared. The deadline was a to prepare for the creation of the genesis block and the decision should not be reversed. Had Poloniex come after launch, would they have been satisfied?
Kindly think before taking any quick decisions.
That's why I think it makes sense to do what Amy and TuanSew suggested: only accept stakes that were not traded after the deadline.
TO Makoto and others who are suggesting to allow AE redemption again -> It's going to make a lot of people angry and hopeless. After the deadline, the leftover stakes were traded at chump change to what other people might have paid for.
If the redemption is allowed then it'll do more damage to NEM than good(if any).
I have been waiting for the past 10 months really patiently for the launch of NEM. I did not even shout once to launch NEM unprepared. The deadline was a to prepare for the creation of the genesis block and the decision should not be reversed. Had Poloniex come after launch, would they have been satisfied?
Kindly think before taking any quick decisions.
Right, as Makoto just said, any assets that were traded after the deadline should definitely not be accepted as those would clearly be the result of a completely unfair market.
We are talking about people that bought in the free market with real money but just were so unlucky as to not redeem.
It is pretty easy to see, when somebody turns in their asset, you go here and see when they received it. http://www.nxtreporting.com/ If it was after the deadline, its not fair to all those that were really trading up to the deadline.
??? im shocked. I invested more than 17k$ and thats exactly the reason why i read announcements etc. If i wouldnt care, 17k wouldnt be much for me…
maybe best fair deal is only accept stakes that were not traded after the deadline, and give them a chance to redeem stakes on same way like btt users
(2mnth after)
??? im shocked. I invested more than 17k$ and thats exactly the reason why i read announcements etc. If i wouldnt care, 17k wouldnt be much for me...
true
maybe best fair deal is only accept stakes that were not traded after the deadline, and give them a chance to redeem stakes on same way like btt users
(2mnth after)
no its not. there is no reason to handle this different. why do you want panalize someone who placed a buy order months ago more?
there will be no fair solution but to stand to your announcement!