NEMstake Redemption Deadline


After the deadline, the leftover stakes were traded at chump change to what other people might have paid for.

[...]

The deadline was a to prepare for the creation of the genesis block and the decision should not be reversed.



[...] I think it makes sense to do what Amy and TuanSew suggested: only accept stakes that were not traded after the deadline.



[...] any assets that were traded after the deadline should definitely not be accepted as those would clearly be the result of a completely unfair market. 

[...]

It is pretty easy to see, when somebody turns in their asset, you go here and see when they received it. http://www.nxtreporting.com/    If it was after the deadline, its not fair to all those that were really trading up to the deadline.


These are very good explanations why it absolutely not acceptable to give people their stake if they bought the asset after the deadline.


After the deadline, the leftover stakes were traded at chump change to what other people might have paid for.

[...]

The deadline was a to prepare for the creation of the genesis block and the decision should not be reversed.



[...] I think it makes sense to do what Amy and TuanSew suggested: only accept stakes that were not traded after the deadline.



[...] any assets that were traded after the deadline should definitely not be accepted as those would clearly be the result of a completely unfair market. 

[...]

It is pretty easy to see, when somebody turns in their asset, you go here and see when they received it. http://www.nxtreporting.com/    If it was after the deadline, its not fair to all those that were really trading up to the deadline.


These are very good explanations why it absolutely not acceptable to give people their stake if they bought the asset after the deadline.


There are also good reasons why its should be possible.

1) Jerks that sold their NEMStake after the deadline basically scammed other people that had buy orders open. Not letting those people redeem is like helping the scammers.

2) The asset description clearly states that NEMStake will be redeemable for real XEM after launch. Since it's not possible to change descriptions this was never adapted according to new rules which is something that I think has been left our in the whole descisionmaking process.

3) The deadline should have never meant the complete shutdown of NEMStake redemption. We violated our own rule that the extended redemption period will be open for NEMStake as well. This is something that was even missunderstood internally when the vote for this move was conducted which is basically how this mess got started in the first place.

There are also good reasons why its should be possible.

1) Jerks that sold their NEMStake after the deadline basically scammed other people that had buy orders open. Not letting those people redeem is like helping the scammers.

2) The asset description clearly states that NEMStake will be redeemable for real XEM after launch. Since it's not possible to change descriptions this was never adapted according to new rules which is something that I think has been left our in the whole descisionmaking process.

3) The deadline should have never meant the complete shutdown of NEMStake redemption. We violated our own rule that the extended redemption period will be open for NEMStake as well. This is something that was even missunderstood internally when the vote for this move was conducted which is basically how this mess got started in the first place.

@ 1) Yes, that is correct.

    [li]Unfortunately there is no way to stop people from trading worthless NEMstake assets.[/li]
    [li]And unfortunately there is no way to update an NXT asset description (I hate that fact so bad). [/li]
    -> Thats why we had the information about the deadline everywhere (forums, facebook, twitter, individual NXT messages to EVERY asset holder,  ...)
    Anyway, it is a valid point and thats why I said in the german forum, we could consider a reward for those who bought NXT NEMstake assets, because the NXT AE didnt give us a way to stop people from trading or updating the asset description. But I have no idea from which fund that could go.

    Giving these people a NEM stake now, is absolutely not fair, because it was a biased market situation and therefore it should not be treated as a normal buy. A refund sounds fair, because people bought something that was worthless (which is a scam). They didn't inform themselves and therefore get penalised buy not getting a stake, but getting their money back. Not too bad because they can just buy after launch, if they are interested!

    @ 2) No, the description says "A NEMstake token represents one million NEM receivable after the official launch of NEM blockchain.". The NEM are receivable after official launch. This is true in every case. It is not saying: You can REDEEM after launch. It is just saying: You get the coins AFTER launch. Big difference in my opinion. Plus people should inform themselves at least 1 % before they buy anything, that 1 % would have been enough to understand there is a deadline.

    @ 3) It was decided that NEMstake assets are treeted differently than BTT stakes, which is ok, since these to things are not comparable: NEMstake asset = real market price; BTT stake = NEM stake distribution model -> low price for wide distribution.

@ 1) Yes, that is correct.

    [li]Unfortunately there is no way to stop people from trading worthless NEMstake assets.[/li]
    [li]And unfortunately there is no way to update an NXT asset description (I hate that fact so bad). [/li]
    -> Thats why we had the information about the deadline everywhere (forums, facebook, twitter, individual NXT messages to EVERY asset holder,  ...)
    Anyway, it is a valid point and thats why I said in the german forum, we could consider a reward for those who bought NXT NEMstake assets, because the NXT AE didnt give us a way to stop people from trading or updating the asset description. But I have no idea from which fund that could go.

    Giving these people a NEM stake now, is absolutely not fair, because it was a biased market situation and therefore it should not be treated as a normal buy. A refund sounds fair, because people bought something that was worthless (which is a scam). They didn't inform themselves and therefore get penalised buy not getting a stake, but getting their money back. Not too bad because they can just buy after launch, if they are interested!

    @ 2) No, the description says "A NEMstake token represents one million NEM receivable after the official launch of NEM blockchain.". The NEM are receivable after official launch. This is true in every case. It is not saying: You can REDEEM after launch. It is just saying: You get the coins AFTER launch. Big difference in my opinion. Plus people should inform themselves at least 1 % before they buy anything, that 1 % would have been enough to understand there is a deadline.

    @ 3) It was decided that NEMstake assets are treeted differently than BTT stakes, which is ok, since these to things are not comparable: NEMstake asset = real market price; BTT stake = NEM stake distribution model -> low price for wide distribution.


1) Refund...that's actually not a shaby idea. Maybe let people redeem that haven't traded and refund the rest ?

2) That's what an assigned counsel would say to get the criminal out of prison. IMHO recievable implies that
it's recievable for the owner of that asset not just in general.

3) dissagree. I just do.

@ 1) Yes, thats at least better than having people get a stake for buying a biased cheap asset!


I'm really really disappointed on the "decision" of cancelling the AE Deadline.
...


No decision has been made.

I'm really really disappointed on the "decision" of cancelling the AE Deadline.
I'm not talking with you about reasons you "decide" that, sounds all like small crap of excuses which I can't buy.

I've been working a lot about NEM a lot lately, around people, not codes, in the ways you don't know about. No idea how you understand our principal: Decentralization, Financial Freedom, Equality of opportunities.  Maybe I lied to myself enough.  It's like the fan logo, if one faith of them is destroyed, it can't more around anymore.

I've lately been cheered by the progress of finding puppet masters, I thought it would be great value of equality, that NEM Community always keep our words and faith. But hearing about the way cancelling AE Deadline passed I'm astonished.

What have I done lately with all the support of China community, am I wasting my time? Are we taking false hope to a group of people I can't trust myself? Should I focus on my job and my family more often?

I mean, are we a community?

Deadline? Devs? NEMtopia? Mobile? Gold & Silver? Funds? Equality? Freedom?
Which I can trust? 

This is not small deed a portion of devs can call it period. What you period group can keep with us?
Change of decision of this kind of importance should be decision of all of us.
I'm not afraid of hurting anyone even myself about this.

It's just make it an open decision or dump during the first week of launch for me!

Well, all of the above is my opinion, I can speak on behalf of myself, period!

good post, thank you.

2) The asset description clearly states that NEMStake will be redeemable for real XEM after launch. Since it's not possible to change descriptions this was never adapted according to new rules which is something that I think has been left our in the whole descisionmaking process.



@ 2) No, the description says "A NEMstake token represents one million NEM receivable after the official launch of NEM blockchain.". The NEM are receivable after official launch. This is true in every case. It is not saying: You can REDEEM after launch. It is just saying: You get the coins AFTER launch. Big difference in my opinion. Plus people should inform themselves at least 1 % before they buy anything, that 1 % would have been enough to understand there is a deadline.



2) That's what an assigned counsel would say to get the criminal out of prison. IMHO recievable implies that
it's recievable for the owner of that asset not just in general.


The NEMstake asset description clearly says: "Please read about NEM, NEMstake token and the conversion rules in our dedicated thread before buying NEMstake."

So it is a no go to let people still get a NEM stake, if they bought the asset after deadline. Considering this, it is even too nice to give them a NXT refund. They DID NOT DO what was said in the description!

...
I'm not talking with you about reasons you "decide" that, sounds all like small crap of excuses which I can't buy.

I've been working a lot about NEM a lot lately, around people, not codes, in the ways you don't know about. No idea how you understand our principal: Decentralization, Financial Freedom, Equality of opportunities.  Maybe I lied to myself enough.  It's like the fan logo, if one faith of them is destroyed, it can't more around any more.

I've lately been cheered by the progress of finding puppet masters, I thought it would be great value of equality, that NEM Community always keep our words and faith. But hearing about the way cancelling AE Deadline passed I'm astonished.

What have I done lately with all the support of China community, am I wasting my time? Are we taking false hope to a group of people I can't trust myself? Should I focus on my job and my family more often?

I mean, are we a community?

Deadline? Devs? NEMtopia? Mobile? Gold & Silver? Funds? Equality? Freedom?
Which can I trust? 

This is not small deed a portion of devs can call it period. What you period group can keep with us?
Change of decision of this kind of importance should be decision of all of us.
I'm not afraid of hurting anyone even myself about this.

It's just make it an open decision or dump during the first week of launch for me!

Well, all of the above is my opinion, I can speak on behalf of myself, period!


The fact that devs are willing to backtrack on such an important decision shows that they are willing to admit that they were wrong. This is something that should build trust not destroy it.
The devs have involed the community in all decisions they are not directly liable for. They have always listened to the community but sometimes the final decision should come from them.

THEY are the ones that are being threatend with legal actions.
THEY are the ones that everyone looks to if NEM goes south.
THEY have lead this project all along and without them there would be no NEM for the community to celebrate.

Therefore it is THEIR right to make some important decisions by themselves.

I undestand and appreciate your point but you can't have every decision being made by the community.

In fact the community made the decision to have another logo vote. What a great decision that was right ?

The community will have a whole fund for projects that it deems great. It will have loads of responsibility after launch. Until launch has happend all responsibility lies with the devs and therefore all decisions should be made by them unless they want the community to do it.

This is insane, we should treat "missing" AE people the same way as with BTT people, so give them two more months for redemption after launch.
Have anyone send any notification to guys from polo, that redemption ends?

I'd like to hear some community voices (so not: rockethead, makoto, kodty - no offence guys) before any decission will be made.


can NOT agree. regulations can NOT be modified so randomly. we should consider about most people's advantage instead of few people!

@pat: Yes, I get your point. But this should be about logical arguments and nothing else. It doesnt matter who explains the logical arguments, the desicion should be based on it anyway.

- There is a very simple logical reason for not giving people a stake (fraction) who bought the asset after the deadline: They didn't do what was said in the asset description "Please read about NEM, NEMstake token and the conversion rules in our dedicated thread before buying NEMstake.".
- And then we have these who missed the deadline (didn't redeem asset before deadline). There are logical reasons for both ways:


    [li]Give them a stake in a late redemption phase (similar to BTT stakes, that were not redeemed before the deadline) because it will not hurt other stakeholders, and because we want wider distribution.[/li]
    [li]Don't give them a stake in a late redemption, because it was announced that this was not possible (no logical reasons for that in my opinion btw) and it would be bad for NEMs reliability/credibility if you back off an earlier announcement.[/li]
    This is what has to be balanced.


This is insane, we should treat "missing" AE people the same way as with BTT people, so give them two more months for redemption after launch.
Have anyone send any notification to guys from polo, that redemption ends?

I'd like to hear some community voices (so not: rockethead, makoto, kodty - no offence guys) before any decission will be made.


can NOT agree. regulations can NOT be modified so randomly. we should consider about most people's advantage instead of few people!


Please tell me about the disadvantage that this brings to most people.

@pat: Yes, I get your point. But this should be about logical arguments and nothing else. It doesnt matter who explains the logical arguments, the desicion should be based on it anyway.

- There is a very simple logical reason for not giving people a stake (fraction) who bought the asset after the deadline: They didn't do what was said in the asset description "Please read about NEM, NEMstake token and the conversion rules in our dedicated thread before buying NEMstake.".
- And then we have these who missed the deadline (didn't redeem asset before deadline). There are logical reasons for both ways:

    [li]Give them a stake in a late redemption phase (similar to BTT stakes, that were not redeemed before the deadline) because it will not hurt other stakeholders, and because we want wider distribution.[/li]
    [li]Don't give them a stake in a late redemption, because it was announced that this was not possible (no logical reasons for that in my opinion btw) and it would be bad for NEMs reliability/credibility if you back off an earlier announcement.[/li]
    This is what has to be balanced.


Tbh I'm only arguing for people that missed the deadline in gerneral. I'm not saying we should let anyone redeem. I think the middleway letting only people redeem that haven't traded after the deadline and refund the rest would be a good way to go.

I disagree with canceling the deadline


there is an old chinese saying "朝令夕改




This is insane, we should treat "missing" AE people the same way as with BTT people, so give them two more months for redemption after launch.
Have anyone send any notification to guys from polo, that redemption ends?

I'd like to hear some community voices (so not: rockethead, makoto, kodty - no offence guys) before any decission will be made.


can NOT agree. regulations can NOT be modified so randomly. we should consider about most people's advantage instead of few people!


Please tell me about the disadvantage that this brings to most people.


absolutely DISAGREE! If every decision can be modified in according with any random factor, why do we make these decision?! NOW every NEMstakeholder follow your original rules, but you guys say we should change something. Absolutely cannot agree!
Trust is based on fixed rules which most people follow with,it is very precious!



This is insane, we should treat "missing" AE people the same way as with BTT people, so give them two more months for redemption after launch.
Have anyone send any notification to guys from polo, that redemption ends?

I'd like to hear some community voices (so not: rockethead, makoto, kodty - no offence guys) before any decission will be made.


can NOT agree. regulations can NOT be modified so randomly. we should consider about most people's advantage instead of few people!


Please tell me about the disadvantage that this brings to most people.

Let me tell you a simple story. There was guy in a village who sometimes used to visit the nearby forest. Once he thought that it would be funny to make a joke of other villagers. So one day he shouted - " Help me!! A tiger has attacked me, Please save me!!" So the villagers took all the sticks and weapons and ran towards the forest only to find the culprit laughing at their foolishness. He did the same thing again another day- and then the villagers thought maybe this time the guy is really in danger. So they took to arms and ran for his rescue, only to find him laughing at their foolishness again.
One day the man was really attacked by a tiger in the forest and he shouted for help. But this time the villagers thought that he was trying to make fun of them again. So they remain busy with their works. And the man was killed by the tiger.
I have been told this story since my childhood. I have been taught that no matter how good we are, if once we steal or lie we become a thief or liar for eternity and this cannot be changed whatever good we do after that. Once we sway away from our word, all our credibility goes to the bin.
It was all clearly written on the AE description page to look for all informations on the BTT thread before buying a stake and it was clearly stated on all channels that AE redemption will be ended on 26/02/2015. So this discussion on the AE stakes should be ended now and nobody should be allowed to redeem any stakes(bought on or before 26/02). I believe that the final socks have been cleared out and the genesis block should be created with the existing accounts.



This is insane, we should treat "missing" AE people the same way as with BTT people, so give them two more months for redemption after launch.
Have anyone send any notification to guys from polo, that redemption ends?

I'd like to hear some community voices (so not: rockethead, makoto, kodty - no offence guys) before any decission will be made.

This also need to tell you? Are you really don't know, or ask while knowing the answer?
can NOT agree. regulations can NOT be modified so randomly. we should consider about most people's advantage instead of few people!


Please tell me about the disadvantage that this brings to most people.

The whole deadline thing was not thought through well. The reasons should be discussed later, because we have to improve this to be successful as a project, but we should not discuss it here now.

The best thing would have been to announce it like this:
Hello People, we are closing the NXT AE NEMstake asset trading. This means:


    [li]Bought assets after that deadline are worthless and you will not get a NEMstake(fraction), because you will not be able to redeem.[/li]
    [li]Sold assets after the deadlines lead to losing the associated NEMstake(fraction), because this will be understood as a tried scam (sell something worthless). There might be a chance to still get the stake by doing a reverse trade with the person who bought your worthless asset, but this depends on invidual cases and there is no guarantee.[/li]
    [li]People who redeem their NXT AE NEMstake assets before the deadline will get a NEMESIS account, which means you have a fully vested NEM stake at launch.[/li]
    [li]People who do not redeem their NXT AE NEMstake asset before the deadline will NOT get a NEMESIS account, which means you have to redeem after launch (e.g. for 2 months after launch - like BTT late redeemers) and then you get an acount which starts vesting from zero from the time you receive it.[/li]


    People have different motivations to stick to the (bad) decided plan:

      [li]They fear NEM loses reliabilty (announcements not taken serious)[/li]
      [li]They want random people to not get their stakes, because they hope a stake increases its value from that (which is wrong btw, because it goes to community fund and other stuff)[/li]

I disagree with canceling the deadline!!!
If the AE asset exchange to be postponed again,The statement from the nem team later, we think that is bullshit!!!

I'd like to clarify one or two things about Poloniex's position here. First of all, neither Poloniex nor anyone at Poloniex invested $17,000 in NEM. I personally own 1 NEMstake, and MobyDick owns 0.5. The $17,000 is minimum estimate I made based on the number of NEMstake that have gone unclaimed. As I understand it, there are several more people who tried to redeem, but did not do it correctly, and would not receive their shares if the deadline were enforced. I am not sure if anyone is actually suggesting enforcing the deadline so strictly as to shut those people out as well, but that would be unconscionable.

I made this thread because I think it's a serious problem that that many investors are having the rug pulled out from under them. Obviously, the communication about the deadline never reached them, and I don't think it's fair to blame them for that, no matter how many times the announcement was posted on the forums. I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone to read about the project, decide it's a good investment, then buy some NEMstake with the intention of sitting on it until they see it on an exchange.

These people WILL feel cheated when they see NEM doing well and find that their investments have been taken away from them. Do you think it is good for NEM to have however many people invested a total of $17,000 feeling cheated by the project? When I first read about NEM, the general feeling I got from it is that it aimed to be as inclusive as possible. Knowing that there are people who paid to invest and will receive nothing in return shakes my confidence in that aim.

So far, the biggest objection I have seen to extending or eliminating the deadline is that a promise was made to have a deadline. To mean, promising to shut people out doesn't make it any more right to shut people out. Is it a breach of trust to realize you made a mistake, revisit the issue, and correct the mistake? It seems there was a lot of confusion and miscommunication, even internally, about this entire matter, and many agree that it was not handled well. I do not see the sense in throwing the word "promise" around and forcing NEM to stick to a bad decision. Aside from the holy principle of never breaking a promise, pinky sworn or not, the only other objection I'm seeing is that it would not be fair to people who dumped their NEMstake on unsuspecting buyers on the AE. I have no sympathy for those people whatsoever – it is obviously immoral to sell something you know is worthless to a buyer who is unaware that it is worthless. The bigger problem there is the people who bought. I recommend allowing these people to redeem, though I think that is less important than allowing people who bought earlier to redeem.

You have to expect that people will misunderstand things or fail to follow instructions. This could be because of a language barrier, because the concepts of crypto are still a little confusing, or because they're simply not good at following instructions. I deal with this at Poloniex all the time. People deposit the wrong coin to the wrong address, or they send CryptoNote deposits without a payment ID, despite an extremely clear warning in a place that they can hardly avoid seeing. I always recover coins if at all possible, even though I am well within my right to turn these people away. I do not presume to judge them for making the mistake; I have no idea what their thought process was or why they were under the impression that the procedure they followed would work. Shutting them out because they misunderstood is morally repugnant to me.